System 11b Space Station - No sound

[Enrico Contiero]

Hi everyone,
I bought recently a Space Station pinball in good condition. Everything works except sound.
More info on my system:
- Sound board D-11581-552 with one EPROM 27256 (U4)
- MPU board 5764-12206-00 with two EPROM 27256 for Speech (U21 - U22)

I think speech are generated by MPU and other sound / background music by sound board.

- No "Bong" on power up, so according to manual "Sound board have a problem"
- If I press one time SW1 on left edge of MPU board I listen "beeeeeeeeeeeeee" sound
- If I press second time SW1 on left edge of MPU board I listen "brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" sound
- Need to press cpu switch to reset and stop sound.
I can assume that TDA2002 works good. I have replace all capacitors only for reduce noise.
Voltage on pin: +5Vdc ; +12Vdc and -15Vdc with low ripple.

First at all:
- No acid on MPU board
- Read all the EPROM. My programmer TL866II plus does not detect the eproms, so I decide to change it (downloaded image from ipdb.org)
- [SOUND BOARD] Put U4 in w27c512 (I don't have 27256) cutting W3 jumper to allow this EPROM type.
- [MPU BOARD] Put U21 and U22 in two w27c512. The difference between 27256/w27c512 are A15(27c512) - VPP(27256) pin. So I copy the code with an offset of 32k with this command (bash linux):
- cat U21_eprom.L1 U21_eprom_L1 > U21_27512_eprom.bin
Theorically it have always an offset by A15 connected to 5Vdc, so second half of EPROM are called. It can work ?
- Change U24 of MPU (6802P) with new one.

Still no sound, just noise that increases with potentiometer.

I see on web that the problem can be cause by TMM2016 RAM. So I touch it (U25 on MPU board and U5 on sound board) and they are really hot. I buy it, but waiting ship, there are other test that I can do?

Thanks

[Enrico Contiero]

Thanks John and FRG!

If the RAM is very hot (sizelling) to the touch then it is probably bad.
Nothing to do until replacement(s) show up.

Thanks, I ordered it. I'll update when it arrive.

If you cut W3 you need to set W2 but I am not sure this soundboard already
fully supports the 27C512. The later ones had changes to also allow an 8K 6264
ram and mixed 27C256/27C512. So instead of W2 I would leave W3 in and just
double up the program code. In this case doesn't matter which half of the
27C512 is addressed and should be fine.

In the beginning I have make this eprom like U21 - U22: double up the program code too. I tried it and not work (probably it's not main problem), so I decided to make the change as indicated on pinwiki here:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Modifying_a_pre-System_11C_Sound_Board_to_use_27512_ROMs_.28D-11581.29
But I forgot to connect W2 :) So now I have double code inside 27c512 but without W3 and W2 connection. Need to replace as original. Thanks.

Post by Enrico Contiero
- cat U21_eprom.L1 U21_eprom_L1 > U21_27512_eprom.bin
Theorically it have always an offset by A15 connected to 5Vdc, so second half of EPROM are called. It can work ?

Yes, see above.

Perfect, thanks.

Post by Enrico Contiero
- Change U24 of MPU (6802P) with new one.

If Hitachi make sure jumper for oscillator is set.

Need to check new PN, need to find this jumper setting

But I would enter the test first.
If you get sounds/speech in the test the sound section is probably ok.
If you miss music it is the bg soundboard.

Post by Enrico Contiero
Still no sound, just noise that increases with potentiometer.

If it is the sound section on the cpu replace the 2 1458. They are the most
common failure parts after the eproms.

In test: no background music (test 1:music) and no sound (test 3:sound)
About 1458 you means U4-U5 of MPU board? I tried to check with oscilloscope if there are something on pin 3 (Aout) of U3 but nothing. I think see something when sound test running (test n.3)

These are NMOS parts and can get hot. Compare with another one.
FRG

In garage I have 9 degrees, and after 2 min this two RAM are very HOT.
About 6264 RAM I see on MPU probably there are the space to put it (it's a 28pin socket), but now there are TMM2016 (24pin socket). Waiting new RAM, I have one of 6264, I can try to put this?
What about jumper? W18 W19 are interested?
The sound board on the other hand does not allow me to swap RAM :(

Thanks a lot

Enrico from Italy

[frg]

Post by Enrico Contiero

Post by Enrico Contiero
- Change U24 of MPU (6802P) with new one.

If Hitachi make sure jumper for oscillator is set.

Need to check new PN, need to find this jumper setting

W116 and W17. See 5764-12091-00 REV. - (Typically System 11A)on
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#

Post by Enrico Contiero
About 1458 you means U4-U5 of MPU board? I tried to check with oscilloscope
if there are something on pin 3 (Aout) of U3 but nothing. I think see
something when sound test running (test n.3)

Yes they are common failure parts on the old System 6 and 7 speech board and
like to fail now and then on newer ones too.

Post by Enrico Contiero
In garage I have 9 degrees, and after 2 min this two RAM are very HOT.

If you can still touch them they are probably not shorted.

Post by Enrico Contiero
About 6264 RAM I see on MPU probably there are the space to put it (it's a 28pin socket), but now there are TMM2016 (24pin socket). Waiting new RAM, I have one of 6264, I can try to put this?

You need to set a jumper then. The obsolete 6116 ram is also a direct
replacement for the 2016. CMOS and usually runs cooler. But that 2 rams fails
at the same time is unlikely. And if you still have speech usually that means
tha the internal circut of the sound part on the CPU is ok.

Post by Enrico Contiero
What about jumper? W18 W19 are interested?

This is the one for the 6264. Schematics are a bit unreadable here but also on
the pinwiki page. W18 set with 8K 6264 or 2064. W19 removed then because r/w
for the 2016/6116.

Given that you have according to the test both a failed sound section and
failed background sound bord I find this a bit puzzling. Can you put different
U21 and U22 sound roms in? They should put out different sounds in test. Maybe
try the combined Sorcerer roms for U21 U22 I put together long ago on the ipdb.

FRG

[Enrico Contiero]

My board are 5764-12206-00 REV. A

Post by frg

If Hitachi make sure jumper for oscillator is set.

On pinwiki I see that W17 need to be cut when using Hitachi 6808 or 6802 MPU at U24
I have Motorola 6802P, so I cut the jumper (as I found it in the beginning)

Post by frg
You need to set a jumper then. The obsolete 6116 ram is also a direct
replacement for the 2016. CMOS and usually runs cooler. But that 2 rams fails
at the same time is unlikely. And if you still have speech usually that means
tha the internal circut of the sound part on the CPU is ok.

I have NO sound NO speech and NO bg music.

Yesterday night I took the board and put it on the laboratory table. Only one check...I said. But after see RC socket (Grrrrr!!!!) I decided to:
Remove socket U21-U22-U23-U24 and place new one.
Put 6264 on U23 (U25 is original for the moment) set W18 and remove W19.
Replace 3x capacitor 100uF C24-C26-C29
Place W3 jumper like original on sound board (with 27c512 double code)
Put mosfet instead transistor (removed 27ohm and put 1K+1K on base, like pinwiki describe). (this has nothing to do with my problem)
2.30am so not tested.... This night test it ;)

Post by frg
Given that you have according to the test both a failed sound section and
failed background sound bord I find this a bit puzzling. Can you put different
U21 and U22 sound roms in? They should put out different sounds in test. Maybe
try the combined Sorcerer roms for U21 U22 I put together long ago on the ipdb.

if the amplifier on the sound card works, I should at least hear the sounds and speech, if not, I'll check EPROM U21-U22 (maybe I can make little adapter and put A15 to GND, because are 27c512 with double code).
Where I can put the probe during audio/music test? U9 from PA0 to PA7? This is digital output.

Stay tuned ;)
Thankssss

[Enrico Contiero]

Some good updates :)
Summary:
----MPU BOARD----
- Removed U23 and put 28pin socket
- Changed socket U21-U22-U24
- Inserted W18 and removed W19 for 6264 RAM
- Inserted W7 for NON Hitachi 6802-6808 cpu
- Used w27c512 EPROM at U21-U22 with double code (A15 is pulled up)
- Changed flat cable with other one (the 20pin cable of ST-LINK2 programmer are perfect)
- IRF9540 mosfet instead of BJT

----SOUND BOARD------
- Use w27c512 EPROM at U4 with double code (A15 is pulled up) and insert W3 jumper
- Recap

Ready to power on:
- No "bong" on power on, sound board have other issue
- The #7 sounds from sound test (n3) works good, MPU board works fine (?)
- The music test (n1) don't do nothing
- SW1 on MPU board for audio test said "Condition: GREEN"

WHAT ARE ORIGINALLY BROKEN? :)
I guess EPROM not good (my TL866II/plus can't read it) and U23 RAM. I can check if original 6802 Hitachi works good, but nothing about RAM 2016, I cut all pin and after remove from pcb (for preserve pcb).
But I'm sure that with EPROM good and 2016 old RAM it don't work.

Next step, check where is the audio board problem. I think there are other sound effect not listen in diagnostic coming from sound board (example -during game- when lit bumper no sound effect is executed).

With oscilloscope I follow the signal:
--- SOUND BOARD (during test n°1 music)----
Data bus on YM2151 are in movement
Output CLK (pin 23) to U1 ok
Output SO (pin 23) to U1 similar to SH1/2 but faster
Output SH1 (pin 20) to U1 are pulse of 55Khz duty 25%
Output SH2 (pin 19 to U1 are pulse of 55Khz duty 25%

Check output of YM3012...Bad, only o high level with periodid little spike. Need to replace it?
Aboud other effect sound, I think its made by U11 1408 of sound board. Need investigate.

Thanksss

[Enrico Contiero]

Post by Enrico Contiero
Some good updates :)
----MPU BOARD----
- Removed U23 and put 28pin socket
- Changed socket U21-U22-U24
- Inserted W18 and removed W19 for 6264 RAM
- Inserted W7 for NON Hitachi 6802-6808 cpu
- Used w27c512 EPROM at U21-U22 with double code (A15 is pulled up)
- Changed flat cable with other one (the 20pin cable of ST-LINK2 programmer are perfect)
- IRF9540 mosfet instead of BJT
----SOUND BOARD------
- Use w27c512 EPROM at U4 with double code (A15 is pulled up) and insert W3 jumper
- Recap
- No "bong" on power on, sound board have other issue
- The #7 sounds from sound test (n3) works good, MPU board works fine (?)
- The music test (n1) don't do nothing
- SW1 on MPU board for audio test said "Condition: GREEN"
WHAT ARE ORIGINALLY BROKEN? :)
I guess EPROM not good (my TL866II/plus can't read it) and U23 RAM. I can check if original 6802 Hitachi works good, but nothing about RAM 2016, I cut all pin and after remove from pcb (for preserve pcb).
But I'm sure that with EPROM good and 2016 old RAM it don't work.
Next step, check where is the audio board problem. I think there are other sound effect not listen in diagnostic coming from sound board (example -during game- when lit bumper no sound effect is executed).
--- SOUND BOARD (during test n°1 music)----
Data bus on YM2151 are in movement
Output CLK (pin 23) to U1 ok
Output SO (pin 23) to U1 similar to SH1/2 but faster
Output SH1 (pin 20) to U1 are pulse of 55Khz duty 25%
Output SH2 (pin 19 to U1 are pulse of 55Khz duty 25%
Check output of YM3012...Bad, only o high level with periodid little spike. Need to replace it?
Aboud other effect sound, I think its made by U11 1408 of sound board. Need investigate.
Thanksss

Hi all!
Problem solved. I have change YM3012 and the output change without the little spike (described above) . But NO music. Looking D3 don't work good (1vpp), I miss to check it....
Waiting RAM 2016 I make little adapter for 6264. Change RN socket of EPROM U4.
After this MUSIC TEST 01 WORKS! I'll re-test old YM3012, but the signal output are different, but maybe it will work too.
IN GAME all works fine, I listen other sound effect and probably MC1408 works too.
So probably the two RAM 2016 and some EPROM are faulty.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------LITTLE 6264 ADAPTER for D-11581-552 without original 28 pin socket---------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Mount 6264 on 28pin socket. Solder 6264 with socket on 12+12 pinstrip male+male turned, leave 1-2-27-28 free.
-Cut connection between 6264.pin23 (A11). Connect pin23 of 6264 side to GND. Pinstrip side are connected to 6264 pin 27.
-Connect pin2 of 6264 to gnd
-Connect pin 26 to pin 28 (different from before leave the interconnection from socket/pinstrip)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/5h43QvmP9PVPUYtP9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YkP3V6zi6jmjA1m26

Byeee

[John Robertson]

Post by Enrico Contiero

Post by Enrico Contiero
Some good updates :)
----MPU BOARD----
- Removed U23 and put 28pin socket
- Changed socket U21-U22-U24
- Inserted W18 and removed W19 for 6264 RAM
- Inserted W7 for NON Hitachi 6802-6808 cpu
- Used w27c512 EPROM at U21-U22 with double code (A15 is pulled up)
- Changed flat cable with other one (the 20pin cable of ST-LINK2 programmer are perfect)
- IRF9540 mosfet instead of BJT
----SOUND BOARD------
- Use w27c512 EPROM at U4 with double code (A15 is pulled up) and insert W3 jumper
- Recap
- No "bong" on power on, sound board have other issue
- The #7 sounds from sound test (n3) works good, MPU board works fine (?)
- The music test (n1) don't do nothing
- SW1 on MPU board for audio test said "Condition: GREEN"
WHAT ARE ORIGINALLY BROKEN? :)
I guess EPROM not good (my TL866II/plus can't read it) and U23 RAM. I can check if original 6802 Hitachi works good, but nothing about RAM 2016, I cut all pin and after remove from pcb (for preserve pcb).
But I'm sure that with EPROM good and 2016 old RAM it don't work.
Next step, check where is the audio board problem. I think there are other sound effect not listen in diagnostic coming from sound board (example -during game- when lit bumper no sound effect is executed).
--- SOUND BOARD (during test n°1 music)----
Data bus on YM2151 are in movement
Output CLK (pin 23) to U1 ok
Output SO (pin 23) to U1 similar to SH1/2 but faster
Output SH1 (pin 20) to U1 are pulse of 55Khz duty 25%
Output SH2 (pin 19 to U1 are pulse of 55Khz duty 25%
Check output of YM3012...Bad, only o high level with periodid little spike. Need to replace it?
Aboud other effect sound, I think its made by U11 1408 of sound board. Need investigate.
Thanksss

Hi all!
Problem solved. I have change YM3012 and the output change without the little spike (described above) . But NO music. Looking D3 don't work good (1vpp), I miss to check it....
Waiting RAM 2016 I make little adapter for 6264. Change RN socket of EPROM U4.
After this MUSIC TEST 01 WORKS! I'll re-test old YM3012, but the signal output are different, but maybe it will work too.
IN GAME all works fine, I listen other sound effect and probably MC1408 works too.
So probably the two RAM 2016 and some EPROM are faulty.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------LITTLE 6264 ADAPTER for D-11581-552 without original 28 pin socket---------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Mount 6264 on 28pin socket. Solder 6264 with socket on 12+12 pinstrip male+male turned, leave 1-2-27-28 free.
-Cut connection between 6264.pin23 (A11). Connect pin23 of 6264 side to GND. Pinstrip side are connected to 6264 pin 27.
-Connect pin2 of 6264 to gnd
-Connect pin 26 to pin 28 (different from before leave the interconnection from socket/pinstrip)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/5h43QvmP9PVPUYtP9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YkP3V6zi6jmjA1m26
Byeee

Great, glad you sorted it out and that you shared your solution!

Happy Holidays!!

John :-#)#

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