Tech Gtb EM drain hole switch

Post by bonsoo
Trying to get Solar City working again after a 5 year haitus. On startup, reels reset to 0 and all drop targets reset. Motor stops. But the ball won't kick out of the drain hole. Manually, targets drop fine and score, but bonus score stepper does not register. And when I close the drain switch, nothing happens. I can activate the outhole kicker by manipulating the ball return relay.
The startup sequence makes the usual five-pulses at a time sounds, but seems to come up short at the end before it stops. That supports my novice mind's thinking that something at the end of the startup sequence isn't happening as it should.
I have the schematics, but it's been nearly 40 years since I had any rudimentary knowledge of how to read them, something I know I will need to brush up on if I hope to get this pin working.
Hoping for some suggestions on where to look and what to look for. This will also help me decipher the schematics.
Thanks

I'm looking at Target Alpha schematics, but should be similar. Go the
the BALL RETURN coil at 14E and trace the wire to the right. There are
three switches to tighten/clean/adjust; N.O. switch on O, N.C. switch on
BX, and N.O. switch on SCORE MOTOR 4C.

- Kerry

bonsoo

2017-04-27 03:35:32 UTC

I believe I checked all the switches as you mentioned. The score motor switch you referenced was a little more difficult to find and to check. But everything is tightened and cleaned. Nothing needed to be adjusted.

Just to be sure, I can get the ball return coil to fire by activating the ball return relay O manually. It's just at start up, the pin isn't aware that the ball is in the outhole. As such, at the end of the startup sequence, the ball does not kick out, rolling over the trough switch on the way to the plunger and resetting the bonus stepper.

Mark

2017-04-27 04:37:33 UTC

Post by bonsoo
Just to be sure, I can get the ball return coil to fire by activating the ball return relay O manually. It's just at start up, the pin isn't aware that the ball is in the outhole. As such, at the end of the startup sequence, the ball does not kick out, rolling over the trough switch on the way to the plunger and resetting the bonus stepper.

You could try ohming out the path from ground to the outhole relay that
should activate the relay.

*With the power off*, start with the switch farthest from the outhole
relay coil that has one side tied to the black (?) wire. Clip one probe
of your meter to the black (?) wire and the other to whatever wire is on
the other side of the switch. Manually open or close the switch to see
if the resistance through it changes from near 0 to something much greater.

Then leave the probe on the black (?) wire where it is and move the
other probe to the wire on the far side of the next switch and repeat
the experiment. This will show you if you can get continuity through
the first two switches.

Add the remaining switches on the way to the outhole relay coil one
switch at a time and convince yourself that you can get continuity
through all of them in series at each step.

It sounds like current isn't getting through the outhole relay coil.
This process should help determine why.

/Mark

Kerry Imming

2017-04-27 13:11:41 UTC

Post by bonsoo
I believe I checked all the switches as you mentioned. The score motor switch you referenced was a little more difficult to find and to check. But everything is tightened and cleaned. Nothing needed to be adjusted.
Just to be sure, I can get the ball return coil to fire by activating the ball return relay O manually. It's just at start up, the pin isn't aware that the ball is in the outhole. As such, at the end of the startup sequence, the ball does not kick out, rolling over the trough switch on the way to the plunger and resetting the bonus stepper.

Then the next question is why the BALL RETURN SW. doesn't fire the BALL
RETURN RELAY (O).

Go to 20E on the schematic and trace right from the O relay. There is a
make-break 15TH POS. BONUS switch that needs to be closed for the O
relay to energize.

Also, if you haven't already, it would be good to go through and tighten
all the switch stacks.

- Kerry

Don O Team EM!

2017-04-27 19:20:55 UTC

Happened to me recently on Target Alpha, it was the bonus unit switch; good place to check.

Frank Furhter

2017-04-28 02:37:34 UTC

Post by Kerry Imming

Post by bonsoo
I believe I checked all the switches as you mentioned. The score motor
switch you referenced was a little more difficult to find and to
check. But everything is tightened and cleaned. Nothing needed to be
adjusted.
Just to be sure, I can get the ball return coil to fire by activating
the ball return relay O manually. It's just at start up, the pin isn't
aware that the ball is in the outhole. As such, at the end of the
startup sequence, the ball does not kick out, rolling over the trough
switch on the way to the plunger and resetting the bonus stepper.

Then the next question is why the BALL RETURN SW. doesn't fire the BALL
RETURN RELAY (O).
Go to 20E on the schematic and trace right from the O relay. There is a
make-break 15TH POS. BONUS switch that needs to be closed for the O
relay to energize.
Also, if you haven't already, it would be good to go through and tighten
all the switch stacks.
- Kerry

Take a few seconds and screen grab, share on your local cloud-box
service, and others can actually see WTF you are talking about.
Literally man, it takes a douche bag a few seconds, talent like you
maybe a few minutes at best.

--
The Frankster, a playfield prankster
Once upon my crank her ballpark shrank.
http://PinWiki.com, Prep-H 4 pinballers.
CARGPB #42 (Free to join, sign up now!)
Dangling Team-EM Member (debauchery a-go-go)
Rule #1 of RGP, there are no rules or rulers.

Kerry Imming

2017-04-28 19:44:19 UTC

Post by Frank Furhter
Take a few seconds and screen grab, share on your local cloud-box
service, and others can actually see WTF you are talking about.
Literally man, it takes a douche bag a few seconds, talent like you
maybe a few minutes at best.

Thanks Frank... here you go:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.pinball/J0jpFo6l1kU/vsg1ZkJqHzIJ

- Kerry

bonsoo

2017-04-28 02:32:11 UTC

I'm beginning to understand the schematics again. Thanks for leading me through it.

Good news! When the bonus stepper is in the 15th position, the switch closes and the O relay energizes as it should. So, what causes the bonus stepper to 'step'?

When a drop target falls, does it score immediately and then count for bonus as well?

Because when I drop a target, it scores but the stepper does not advance. Or am I missing something? When the ball drains to the outhole, I recall there being a sequence in which the stepper would count. That's not happening now, so the stepper never reaches the 15th position, so the ball return switch never completes the circuit to the ball return relay.

I cleaned switches and tightened the stack in the bonus score control relay G and I can advance the stepper manually with this relay. But what activates the relay?

Kerry Imming

2017-04-28 19:42:16 UTC

Post by bonsoo
I'm beginning to understand the schematics again. Thanks for leading me through it.
Good news! When the bonus stepper is in the 15th position, the switch closes and the O relay energizes as it should. So, what causes the bonus stepper to 'step'?
When a drop target falls, does it score immediately and then count for bonus as well?
Because when I drop a target, it scores but the stepper does not advance. Or am I missing something? When the ball drains to the outhole, I recall there being a sequence in which the stepper would count. That's not happening now, so the stepper never reaches the 15th position, so the ball return switch never completes the circuit to the ball return relay.
I cleaned switches and tightened the stack in the bonus score control relay G and I can advance the stepper manually with this relay. But what activates the relay?

The BONUS SCORE CONTROL RELAY (G) pulls in when the ball goes into the
outhole (TROUGH SWITCH). A switch on G steps the BONUS UNIT and scans
all the drop targets. Manually actuate G and see if it starts the SCORE
MOTOR and steps the BONUS UNIT.

- Kerry

bonsoo

2017-04-30 03:44:49 UTC

Manually activating G starts the score motor and the bonus unit. I would think that means that when the ball closes the outhole switch, there is still some switch on that line that is open but should be closed to complete the circuit, yes?

And, it may be unrelated, but when the bonus unit scans the drop targets when I manually actuate G, it does not recognize any of the drop targets that are down. The wipers on the stepper are adjusted correctly. When I activate the trough switch, the bonus unit resets to home position.

Kerry Imming

2017-04-30 16:52:17 UTC

Post by bonsoo
Manually activating G starts the score motor and the bonus unit. I would think that means that when the ball closes the outhole switch, there is still some switch on that line that is open but should be closed to complete the circuit, yes?
And, it may be unrelated, but when the bonus unit scans the drop targets when I manually actuate G, it does not recognize any of the drop targets that are down. The wipers on the stepper are adjusted correctly. When I activate the trough switch, the bonus unit resets to home position.

If you trace right from the G coil (20E) on the schematics through the
BALL RETURN switch you'll come to SCORE MOTOR switch 1C. Since the
TROUGH switch and PLAYER UNIT are working, the switches up to that point
must be working.

That leaves
1. make-break switch on DX with red-green, blue+white, and orange+white
wires.
2. make-break 15TH POS. BONUS UNIT switch with blue+white, orange+white,
and black-yellow wires
3. BALL RETURN switch with black-yellow and slate-black wires.

Check those switches. You could jumper from the red-green wire on the G
coil to black-yellow on the BALL RETURN switch and test.

- Kerry

bonsoo

2017-04-30 17:54:37 UTC

I was checking/cleaning DX as you replied. So you're not confirms that I'm learning where to look.
Now, unfortunately, on powerup, motor runs continuously. That's before even hitting the start button. One step forward and two steps back. Gotta fix this now before I can get to the original problem . . . argh. Had to be something I did to DX.

bonsoo

2017-04-30 22:33:41 UTC

For the record, problem was with the M/B switch in the bonus stepper unit. Easy adjustment on one side and very particular adjustment on the other. I figured if one was the good, it was given that the other was as well. Another basic lesson learned.

Thanks for walking me through schematics. Hopefully my next encounter won't be as daunting now.

Kerry Imming

2017-05-01 01:32:15 UTC

Post by bonsoo
For the record, problem was with the M/B switch in the bonus stepper unit. Easy adjustment on one side and very particular adjustment on the other. I figured if one was the good, it was given that the other was as well. Another basic lesson learned.
Thanks for walking me through schematics. Hopefully my next encounter won't be as daunting now.

Nice work. Glad to hear you got it working.

- Kerry

Bubba

2021-04-10 11:43:44 UTC

I know this thread is old, but it just helped me out with my Target Alpha. I've got another issue with my TA that is driving me nuts and has to do with the bonus stepper as well. What triggers the scan and more specifically, the speed at which it scans? Mine does count down, but on some pulses, it has a long pause between count and other times it counts much faster. It doesn't seem consistent.

Nice work. Glad to hear you got it working.
- Kerry

John Robertson

2021-04-10 16:48:29 UTC

Post by Bubba
I know this thread is old, but it just helped me out with my Target Alpha. I've got another issue with my TA that is driving me nuts and has to do with the bonus stepper as well. What triggers the scan and more specifically, the speed at which it scans? Mine does count down, but on some pulses, it has a long pause between count and other times it counts much faster. It doesn't seem consistent.

Check the condition of the related Motor switches. Dirty and/or contacts
with poor wiping give this sort of inconsistency.

John :-#)#

Nice work. Glad to hear you got it working.
- Kerry

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
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www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Mark

2021-04-10 19:17:02 UTC

Have a look at the circuit for the Add "Bonus" Unit solenoid on the
schematic. Usually to count a bonus a normally open switch on the
G/Bonus Score Control relay closes to allow pulses from the Score Motor
4A and 4D switches to pass directly to the Add Bonus Unit solenoid. The
4A switch sends groups of five pulses from the Score Motor to the Add
Bonus solenoid - 5 pulses per 1/3 Score Motor turn. These same "groups
of 5" kinds of pulses are used to reset the score reels for example.

The 4D motor switch sends a single, longer pulse to the Add Bonus unit
before the 5 pulses from the 4A switch for a total of 6 pulses per Score
Motor cycle. The pulse durations and locations are illustrated on the
Motor Sequence Chart on the schematic. So the first timing variable in
counting the bonus is 1 long pulse vs 5 shorter pulses per Score Motor
cycle.

The Bonus Unit takes a step each time a pulse is received and if the
associated drop target is down a different pulse is sent to the 1000
point relay to add points. The Bonus Unit takes 15 steps total, one
step per target, but points are added only where targets are down adding
another variable into the bonus count timing. So if only the first and
last targets are down for example you'll get 2000 points but they'll be
scored at the very beginning and very end of the 15 pulses.

Counting a Double Bonus is a little more complicated and adds a third
timing variable. Since 2000 points need to be added per target the
Bonus Unit needs to slow down to allow two pulses to be sent to the 1000
point relay for each Bonus Unit position. In this case a normally
closed switch on the K/Double Bonus relay opens to block the 5 pulses
from the 4A motor switch from getting to the Bonus Unit solenoid. In
this case the 4A pulses are forced through motor switches 2D and 3B
which allow only two of the 5 pulses from the 4A switch to get through
to the Bonus Unit. In this scenario the Bonus Unit takes only 3 steps
per Score Motor cycle instead of the 6 steps per cycle it takes during a
normal bonus count. This allows the 1000 point relay to receive two
pulses per Bonus Unit step instead of just one, which doubles the total.

/Mark

Bubba

2021-04-11 12:00:26 UTC

Have a look at the circuit for the Add "Bonus" Unit solenoid on the
schematic. Usually to count a bonus a normally open switch on the
G/Bonus Score Control relay closes to allow pulses from the Score Motor
4A and 4D switches to pass directly to the Add Bonus Unit solenoid. The
4A switch sends groups of five pulses from the Score Motor to the Add
Bonus solenoid - 5 pulses per 1/3 Score Motor turn. These same "groups
of 5" kinds of pulses are used to reset the score reels for example.
The 4D motor switch sends a single, longer pulse to the Add Bonus unit
before the 5 pulses from the 4A switch for a total of 6 pulses per Score
Motor cycle. The pulse durations and locations are illustrated on the
Motor Sequence Chart on the schematic. So the first timing variable in
counting the bonus is 1 long pulse vs 5 shorter pulses per Score Motor
cycle.
The Bonus Unit takes a step each time a pulse is received and if the
associated drop target is down a different pulse is sent to the 1000
point relay to add points. The Bonus Unit takes 15 steps total, one
step per target, but points are added only where targets are down adding
another variable into the bonus count timing. So if only the first and
last targets are down for example you'll get 2000 points but they'll be
scored at the very beginning and very end of the 15 pulses.
Counting a Double Bonus is a little more complicated and adds a third
timing variable. Since 2000 points need to be added per target the
Bonus Unit needs to slow down to allow two pulses to be sent to the 1000
point relay for each Bonus Unit position. In this case a normally
closed switch on the K/Double Bonus relay opens to block the 5 pulses
from the 4A motor switch from getting to the Bonus Unit solenoid. In
this case the 4A pulses are forced through motor switches 2D and 3B
which allow only two of the 5 pulses from the 4A switch to get through
to the Bonus Unit. In this scenario the Bonus Unit takes only 3 steps
per Score Motor cycle instead of the 6 steps per cycle it takes during a
normal bonus count. This allows the 1000 point relay to receive two
pulses per Bonus Unit step instead of just one, which doubles the total.
/Mark

Thanks for the great explanation. There is a lot more going on in that circuit than I thought. I never get 5 pulses. I get one long pulse for most counts. Sometimes I get 3 quick pulses even without the double lit. I do get the correct scoring though, but it takes quite awhile to complete the scan. I'll have a look through this in the next few days. I just pulled the playfield for a deep cleaning.

Don O Team EM!

2021-04-16 17:56:25 UTC

Ok, as part of the bonus scanning circuit, the switch blades that are on the top level (D) of the motor get a heavy workout, and on three separate Solar City/Target Alpha games I've worked on in the past (including my game too), one or two of the three switch blades had broken perfectly, to a point that you'd never be able to eyeball it unless you knew exactly how each of blades are shaped. There is a long-winded but great explanation along with photos of the switch blades you need to confirm on Pinside. If it boils down to broken blades, those exact blades can be ordered from Pinball Resource.

Bubba

2021-04-18 13:09:31 UTC

Thanks for the suggestion.. I've gone through the score motor, score relays, and anything else I can visually see, clean and adjust. Every target scores properly, it just takes a long time. Some spots it will pulse 2x, but I never get the 5 pulses or even 3 pulses. I went through the 2nd level stack and everything looks good and I don't see any arcing when the motor is running. I've tried on 3 ball and 5 ball with no difference. The top 4D switch does have some arcing once in awhile on the pads, but not every time. I'll search on Pinside for the thread. I think I am going to post there as well just so I can put up a video as well. Being that the scoring is working properly, I'm almost wondering if what I've got is normal.

Mark

2021-04-18 15:02:00 UTC

Post by Bubba
Thanks for the suggestion.. I've gone through the score motor, score relays, and anything else I can visually see, clean and adjust. Every target scores properly, it just takes a long time. Some spots it will pulse 2x, but I never get the 5 pulses or even 3 pulses. I went through the 2nd level stack and everything looks good and I don't see any arcing when the motor is running. I've tried on 3 ball and 5 ball with no difference. The top 4D switch does have some arcing once in awhile on the pads, but not every time. I'll search on Pinside for the thread. I think I am going to post there as well just so I can put up a video as well. Being that the scoring is working properly, I'm almost wondering if what I've got is normal.

Given that it's a long sequence even when it's working it would help to
characterize the behavior a little more. For example on a single bonus,
how many motor cycles (1/3 turn) does it take to add the bonus? At 6
pulses per cycle the motor would need to go through 3 cycles or one
complete turn. Is it consistent if the same target (or targets) is down
or does it vary? When does it give you three quick pulses? Etc...

Bubba

2021-04-18 16:26:08 UTC

Thanks Mark.. I'm going to play with it today and try to narrow it down. I haven't counted rotations vs pulses yet. I don't have consistent pulses vs steps though. I also don't always drop the same targets while I'm playing with it. Maybe I'll work with the 5 bank first and see if I can find some consistency. I did search a bit on Pinside and found a few good threads about the issue that have already been hashed out pretty good. I don't think my issue is any different than a few of these threads. I'm going to have a good look at the 4D switch lever as well.

Bubba

2021-04-18 18:05:32 UTC

OK.. I think Don O hit the nail on the head.. Im on the machine now. I get 6 motor full revolutions to count the bonus. This is with all 5 drop targets down. It scores properly. I'm looking at my score motor comparing some of the pics I found on one thread about score motor switches and levers. I don't have any lever on my 2D stack. Its just a flat blade of the switch that touches the rod as the motor goes around. Here is the thread I'm comparing it to. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-scan-bonus-unit-of-canada-dry-target-alpha-solar-city-#post-5903847 . First post has a bunch of pics showing the lever on 2D. Mine is definitely gone. Is it the only problem, I dunno yet, but I guess I'll be doing another PBR order.

Bubba

2021-04-27 00:09:21 UTC

Ok.. I got my replacement switch lever tonight and put it on. Ran the machine and same thing.. I was trying to watch relays as it was counting down. The G relay was pulsing the bonus stepper directly. I'm wondering if this wasn't rigged somewhere if they couldn't figure out the broken lever? Looking at the schematic, it looks like everything is going through the DX relay? My schematic is pretty bad. I should have ordered a new one. I don't know if a video link works but here is a video of the ball drain. https://photos.app.goo.gl/UJGvP21bRhpTFWFy5

Don O Team EM!

2021-04-27 02:47:00 UTC

Could you post a photo of the top of your motor so I can see all the top level switch blades? For the only time in my long pinball career I had to let Steve know that he had suggested an incorrect blade on my TA so it didn't work properly with the incorrect blade... It's been at least 5 years so I can't remember which blade it was, but I had to replace it 2X... it's all in place now, so I'd like to compare my topside with yours... perhaps you've still got an incorrect or broken blade up top.

-don O

Mark

2021-04-27 05:15:01 UTC

Post by Bubba
The G relay was pulsing the bonus stepper directly.

The G relay is pulsing while the bonus is counting? I don't think it
should.

Once the Ball Return switch fires the G relay, it should hold itself on
until the Bonus Unit 15th position switch opens. If your G relay isn't
holding, either because its own lock in switch or the 15th position
switch isn't closing, I think you'd get the one Bonus Unit step per
Score Motor cycle you're seeing.

If the G relay doesn't hold then it will only fire while the ball is in
the out hole and the Motor 1C switch is closed at the start of the Score
Motor cycle. When the Motor 1C switch is holding the G relay closed
just a single Motor 4A pulse gets through the K and G relay switches in
the Add Bonus Unit circuit. The Motor 1C switch then opens which
relaxes the G relay and prevents the next four Motor 4A switches from
reaching the Add Bonus Unit solenoid. So instead of 5 pulses per Score
Motor cycle you're only getting the first of the 5.

/Mark

Bubba

2021-04-27 11:33:26 UTC

Post by Bubba
The G relay was pulsing the bonus stepper directly.

The G relay is pulsing while the bonus is counting? I don't think it
should.
Once the Ball Return switch fires the G relay, it should hold itself on
until the Bonus Unit 15th position switch opens. If your G relay isn't
holding, either because its own lock in switch or the 15th position
switch isn't closing, I think you'd get the one Bonus Unit step per
Score Motor cycle you're seeing.
If the G relay doesn't hold then it will only fire while the ball is in
the out hole and the Motor 1C switch is closed at the start of the Score
Motor cycle. When the Motor 1C switch is holding the G relay closed
just a single Motor 4A pulse gets through the K and G relay switches in
the Add Bonus Unit circuit. The Motor 1C switch then opens which
relaxes the G relay and prevents the next four Motor 4A switches from
reaching the Add Bonus Unit solenoid. So instead of 5 pulses per Score
Motor cycle you're only getting the first of the 5.
/Mark

Don O - I'll post a picture tonight when I get home. The switch blade I replaced was the one that was talked about on the few threads I saw on Pinside. Whether any of the other blades were changed previously or not I don't know.

Mark-- I didn't think the relay should pulse. One time I did hold in the G relay and it rapid fired the bonus. It didn't pulse or pause, it just sounded like a full auto machine gun. I'll look at the 15th pos switch again, but I've gone over it a few times with no difference. I think I went over the G relay contacts as well, but I'll go through that again tonight.

Bubba

2021-04-27 13:14:02 UTC

Post by Bubba
The G relay was pulsing the bonus stepper directly.

The G relay is pulsing while the bonus is counting? I don't think it
should.
Once the Ball Return switch fires the G relay, it should hold itself on
until the Bonus Unit 15th position switch opens. If your G relay isn't
holding, either because its own lock in switch or the 15th position
switch isn't closing, I think you'd get the one Bonus Unit step per
Score Motor cycle you're seeing.
If the G relay doesn't hold then it will only fire while the ball is in
the out hole and the Motor 1C switch is closed at the start of the Score
Motor cycle. When the Motor 1C switch is holding the G relay closed
just a single Motor 4A pulse gets through the K and G relay switches in
the Add Bonus Unit circuit. The Motor 1C switch then opens which
relaxes the G relay and prevents the next four Motor 4A switches from
reaching the Add Bonus Unit solenoid. So instead of 5 pulses per Score
Motor cycle you're only getting the first of the 5.
/Mark

Don O - I'll post a picture tonight when I get home. The switch blade I replaced was the one that was talked about on the few threads I saw on Pinside. Whether any of the other blades were changed previously or not I don't know.
Mark-- I didn't think the relay should pulse. One time I did hold in the G relay and it rapid fired the bonus. It didn't pulse or pause, it just sounded like a full auto machine gun. I'll look at the 15th pos switch again, but I've gone over it a few times with no difference. I think I went over the G relay contacts as well, but I'll go through that again tonight.

I just put a snippet of the schematic here - https://photos.app.goo.gl/mchhh9mUQNQ714FY9
It looks like G is fired by a M/B on the 15th position switch and then a M/B on the DX relay. The DX relay didn't move while I was watching the pulse.

Bubba

2021-04-27 23:58:15 UTC