gottlieb system1 cpu non functional

[r***@gmail.com]

I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

[Dave Kon]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

Yes that would keep it from booting you need the -12. Best bet If displays are working, Power supply is working and everything else is in good working order . Get yourself the NI wumpf or P1 board from http://www.flippp.fr/boards.php?lg=en
It's a great board and worth the money. If any question on the Power supply or driver board not working, i would get the p1 x4 all in one, it's Even better. Having new is better then old tech. most of the time. Why swap old parts for old parts.

[Dave Kon]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

Take a look at this.

[pinnut]

Post by Dave Kon

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

Take a look at this.
http://youtu.be/jyvTtgNhld8

just my opinion, but a pascal board in a dragon game is not a good move money wise. i had a dragon, and i think the artwork is first class, but the game play is dull, dull, dull. its a low value, pretty unloved game you will find hard to sell when its time to go. find an working orig board for cheap and just get it working. the upside to the pascal is you can pull it and put it in a better system 1 game if you come across one. system 1 games to me are solid state EM's, but many EMs have much better gameplay, no boards or displays to blow up, and prices are very low. . off the top of my head, other than genie, i cant think of a sys 1 game i really like to play. ive owned a few, including genie, and dragon. dragon just sat there, it wasnt fun enough to even bother playing.

[The Junkman]

Post by pinnut

Post by Dave Kon

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

Take a look at this.
http://youtu.be/jyvTtgNhld8

just my opinion, but a pascal board in a dragon game is not a good move money wise. i had a dragon, and i think the artwork is first class, but the game play is dull, dull, dull. its a low value, pretty unloved game you will find hard to sell when its time to go. find an working orig board for cheap and just get it working. the upside to the pascal is you can pull it and put it in a better system 1 game if you come across one. system 1 games to me are solid state EM's, but many EMs have much better gameplay, no boards or displays to blow up, and prices are very low. . off the top of my head, other than genie, i cant think of a sys 1 game i really like to play. ive owned a few, including genie, and dragon. dragon just sat there, it wasnt fun enough to even bother playing.

I agree this game don't get the love like other system one games. I also have had a few over the years Sinbad, Pinball pool, 2 Countdown, and a Dragon. I still have the Dragon it is still a project. I got the boards running a few years ago. Its sitting in storage right now but it is on the list of things to get to:)

Mark

[The Junkman]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

There is a adjustment Pot on the power supply board. You can ajust these voltages -12. I always put a New regulators and caps, These boards had lots of cold solder joints:(

[Dave Kon]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

Bottom line is you can fix the pin with a new board. A used redone system 1, a NI Wumpf or Flippp. Spending money or if you like the pin is a another subject, that is a matter of your own taste.

[The Junkman]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly

Problem may not be the Board. So it may not fix it...Or may be a 5 dollar part. There nothing wrong with working original boards:) and saving $300

[Dave Kon]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

I agree that is the first choice of course. But if that is not a thing you can do. Or it is above your ability you have options. But when you start with a battery that leaked,Spider chips, dropped voltage on the board not the power supply, and you followed the video, it is a answer. $300 is for the all in 1, MPU alone is around $150.

[r***@gmail.com]

the power supply works perfectly. it is totally rebuilt. There is no way to turn up the -12 volt supply since one dial effects the 5 volts and the other is for 60 volts. the acid damage was very minor and not very detectable. mostly it consisted of some bubbling of the green board covering and some tarnish on some resistors and a small possibility on a socket for z8. Iam trying to find a solution that is not to expensive to fix this board and was trying to find a suggestion or two on where I should be looking for a problem. at least now I know that the board can not boot at all unless it get the full -12 volts. I just have to find what is dragging it down.

[Dave Kon]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

board requires -12 volts DC for the six spider chips to
work. If an otherwise working game is powered on with the -12
volts missing (due to a bad power supply or bad connectors), all the CPU controlled coils will lock on(and most of the CPU driven lamps), and the game will not boot.

[r***@gmail.com]

yea I understand that part but what will draw down the -12 volts about 4 volts. should I disconnect the 5 volts and try to determine what gets a little warmer because it would be dissipating voltage. a component in line with the warm one should be the defective part since the processor isn't working?

[Dave Kon]

Post by r***@gmail.com
yea I understand that part but what will draw down the -12 volts about 4 volts. should I disconnect the 5 volts and try to determine what gets a little warmer because it would be dissipating voltage. a component in line with the warm one should be the defective part since the processor isn't working?

Is there -12 volts DC at the CPU board? Best place to check for this is at the C17 capacitor

[Dave Kon]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

Measure TC1 pin 14 (or chip Z2 pins 7,9) and power the CPU on. It should show immediately at power on 12 volts. This will rapidly change into +5 volts after about half a second. This is the RESET signal. Another place to check the Reset is at chip Z2 pins 7,9. (Both should go high to 5 volts after about one second of poweron.)If the reset is not working and does not change to +5 volts, it is best to replace the Q5
and Q6 (MPSA70)
in the reset circuitry.

[Dave Kon]

If the reset is still not going from 12 to +5 volts, change chip Z2 (4528 CMOS.) Still not working, check or replace caps C31 and C32 (.1 mfd, and these do sometimes fail). Note that the "Reset" button on the CPU board has nothing to do with this Reset signal (it is only used to reset bookkeeping
values).

[r***@gmail.com]

I connect -12 volts to the cpu and when I measure it on the cpu it is -8 volts not the -12 that is originally put on the board and yes I am measuring at the capacitor something is drawing down the -12 volts I am putting into the board. the power draw down happens both when I am using the gottlieb power supply and an external computer power supply. until I figure out what is taking out the -12 volts I can not proceed to the next step check the reset circuit

[The Junkman]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

I would Start with the damaged Chip and replace it. I would all so look at the first thing the -12 hits The cap on the cpu. If its Bad it will pull it down. You will need a good meter to check this with one leg removed. I use a Fluke it can check up to 10,000 uf

[r***@gmail.com]

Yea I kind of took your advice and checked that chip socket and reflowed it with a hotter setting on the soldering iron. getting used to the temperature iron, didn't realize I need it a little hotter if I want solder to flow and solder the other side of a board. had to remove c20 to test properly and also removed q5 and q6 because of funky readings they tested good and were remounted along with c20. checked a few resistors and they all seemed good and the caps didn't seem to be shorted but they will need to be out of circuit to test better. did a quick test of system and I had what looked like -11 volts and the 5 I needed. getting late and I am tired and don't want to futz with it anymore tonight in the tired shape I am in. tomorrow I will put an alive led in and recheck on the bench. machine is at a friends house that I can not get to until Saturday. update later

[John Robertson]

Post by r***@gmail.com
Yea I kind of took your advice and checked that chip socket and reflowed it with a hotter setting on the soldering iron. getting used to the temperature iron, didn't realize I need it a little hotter if I want solder to flow and solder the other side of a board. had to remove c20 to test properly and also removed q5 and q6 because of funky readings they tested good and were remounted along with c20. checked a few resistors and they all seemed good and the caps didn't seem to be shorted but they will need to be out of circuit to test better. did a quick test of system and I had what looked like -11 volts and the 5 I needed. getting late and I am tired and don't want to futz with it anymore tonight in the tired shape I am in. tomorrow I will put an alive led in and recheck on the bench. machine is at a friends house that I can not get to until Saturday. update later

You may want to consider replacing the original regulator/power supply
with a more modern one - like the GPE design or X-Pin.

Fixing the original supply is not that easy, and some problems can be
caused by removing it from the mounting plate. These days it is better
to replace it with a new model unless you are good at soldering and
troubleshooting linear voltage regulators.

Your lack of good -12 indicates a problem with either the filter cap for
the input to the -12 regulator (a 7912) or perhaps a bad connection or
open diode. If you only show 11VDC, then I would check for AC ripple on
the -12 - should be 0VAC.

John :-#)#

[r***@gmail.com]

when I am testing on the work table I am using a computer power supply. The computer power supply is supplying less -12 then the rebuilt power supply. both were giving between 3 and 4 volts losses but the gottlieb one had a higher starting point probably because the computer power supply didn't really care about -12 too much in its design. great idea about checking the ac ripple I never thought of that. off to work now and then playing with it later

[John Robertson]

when I am testing on the work table I am using a computer power supply. The computer power supply is supplying less -12 then the rebuilt power supply.. both were giving between 3 and 4 volts losses but the gottlieb one had a higher starting point probably because the computer power supply didn't really care about -12 too much in its design. great idea about checking the ac ripple I never thought of that. off to work now and then playing with it later

The MOS circuits need 17VDC to run properly (+5 & -12 = 17).

John :-#)#

[r***@gmail.com]

update

cpu board is no longer dragging down voltages seems to have corrected itself with my fiddling and reflowing and remounting items I was testing.

currently bench testing with computer power supply. access to machine restricted till weekend. machine has the better power supply in it.
current results on bench
no cpu active light. computer power supply is not putting out enough.
+ 4.85 and -10.86 volts. when testing reset signal I see -6 volts for a fraction of a second before it goes to 4.8. both q5 and q6 were removed and put through a tester I have and reported as good and as proper pnp transistors.
z2 chip pins 7 and 9 read 2.1 and 2.7 when trying reset test. c31 and c32 test perfect off board. clock legs read .26 volts and -1.02 volts.
I don't think I will be able to continue properly until it is in the machine with the better regulated power supply.

the gottlieb power supply was rebuilt with new caps diodes transistors and variable resistors so I know it is working well

[Force Flow]

Post by John Robertson

Post by r***@gmail.com
Yea I kind of took your advice and checked that chip socket and reflowed it with a hotter setting on the soldering iron. getting used to the temperature iron, didn't realize I need it a little hotter if I want solder to flow and solder the other side of a board. had to remove c20 to test properly and also removed q5 and q6 because of funky readings they tested good and were remounted along with c20. checked a few resistors and they all seemed good and the caps didn't seem to be shorted but they will need to be out of circuit to test better. did a quick test of system and I had what looked like -11 volts and the 5 I needed. getting late and I am tired and don't want to futz with it anymore tonight in the tired shape I am in. tomorrow I will put an alive led in and recheck on the bench. machine is at a friends house that I can not get to until Saturday. update later

You may want to consider replacing the original regulator/power supply
with a more modern one - like the GPE design or X-Pin.
Fixing the original supply is not that easy, and some problems can be
caused by removing it from the mounting plate. These days it is better
to replace it with a new model unless you are good at soldering and
troubleshooting linear voltage regulators.
Your lack of good -12 indicates a problem with either the filter cap for
the input to the -12 regulator (a 7912) or perhaps a bad connection or
open diode. If you only show 11VDC, then I would check for AC ripple on
the -12 - should be 0VAC.
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
[phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Just for reference:

http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_1#Recommended_Power_Supply_Updates_.26_Repairs

[r***@gmail.com]

yes I got I and I have replaced all those components mentioned and at least another few zeners I believe, I did add the fuses to the lugs on 6 and 7 I believe. diodes were added to the cpu to driver harness. I am buying a better test bench power supply since the one I have is not good enough for these sensitive gottlieb boards

[c***@provide.net]

Frankly it's a poor reference.
If you follow what they suggest in your link,
you have managed to replace nearly every
component on the system 1 power supply,
whether they need it or not (and they
probably don't need it.)
and those parts aren't free.

So in addition to possibly mounting something
wrong (backwards, incorrectly, etc.), and
creating a problem that wasn't there to start...
The whole thing, after buying all the parts,
will cost you more than a NEW system1 power supply!
(which are available in the $50 to $65 range.)

freaking brilliant!

[Gott Lieb?]

Post by c***@provide.net
Frankly it's a poor reference.
If you follow what they suggest in your link,
you have managed to replace nearly every
component on the system 1 power supply,
whether they need it or not (and they
probably don't need it.)
and those parts aren't free.
So in addition to possibly mounting something
wrong (backwards, incorrectly, etc.), and
creating a problem that wasn't there to start...
The whole thing, after buying all the parts,
will cost you more than a NEW system1 power supply!
(which are available in the $50 to $65 range.)
freaking brilliant!

So what is the "Clay Way" of doing it? It's nice that you can criticize, but it's less than constructive, and you don't post a better alternative method.

Secondly, it is not all of the components on the power supply.

Third, total cost is probably under $15 not including shipping.

Finally, I don't rebuild these power supplies (I haven't in years), but I'm sure others would like to know how to. Hence, that is why there are repair guides like the Pinwiki available.

Jim

[Dave Kon]

Easy answer Get the New cpu board . Fast fix for the machine. You don't have to buy a fluke, You don't have to buy a new bench power supply. No rebuilding of old power supply with chance of doing it wrong. Don't have to worry about hacked repairs that have been made in the past. Acid damage or spider chips are a thing of the past. You won't have to put the game in storage and get to it when you have a chance. If it is a dog of a game, it is that because you deem it so. Not because someone else says it is. Cost of the machine is up to you, it's worth what you want to pay to get it to work. Or if you don't mind, keep pluggin away at it. Until you get to the point that it isn't worth the effort.
I have booted the system 1 with old computer supply's and arcade switching supply's on the bench. So it sounds like you are past that point.Check your grounds on the machine make sure they are in place. Do the step by step boot up. After you get cpu to bench start. If you like to tinker with it and not in a hurry then keep doing it you might get it going. And good for you if you do. That is part of the fun of pinball for some. Wish i could give you more info on fixing it but that is what i have. Good Luck.

[The Junkman]

Post by Dave Kon
Easy answer Get the New cpu board . Fast fix for the machine. You don't have to buy a fluke, You don't have to buy a new bench power supply. No rebuilding of old power supply with chance of doing it wrong. Don't have to worry about hacked repairs that have been made in the past. Acid damage or spider chips are a thing of the past. You won't have to put the game in storage and get to it when you have a chance. If it is a dog of a game, it is that because you deem it so. Not because someone else says it is. Cost of the machine is up to you, it's worth what you want to pay to get it to work. Or if you don't mind, keep pluggin away at it. Until you get to the point that it isn't worth the effort.
I have booted the system 1 with old computer supply's and arcade switching supply's on the bench. So it sounds like you are past that point.Check your grounds on the machine make sure they are in place. Do the step by step boot up. After you get cpu to bench start. If you like to tinker with it and not in a hurry then keep doing it you might get it going. And good for you if you do. That is part of the fun of pinball for some. Wish i could give you more info on fixing it but that is what i have. Good Luck.

I like having extra games in storage. A big pile :)

[c***@provide.net]

Post by Gott Lieb?

Post by c***@provide.net
Frankly it's a poor reference.
If you follow what they suggest in your link,
you have managed to replace nearly every
component on the system 1 power supply,
whether they need it or not (and they
probably don't need it.)
and those parts aren't free.
So in addition to possibly mounting something
wrong (backwards, incorrectly, etc.), and
creating a problem that wasn't there to start...
The whole thing, after buying all the parts,
will cost you more than a NEW system1 power supply!
(which are available in the $50 to $65 range.)
freaking brilliant!

So what is the "Clay Way" of doing it? It's nice that you can criticize, but it's less than constructive, and you don't post a better alternative method.
Secondly, it is not all of the components on the power supply.
Third, total cost is probably under $15 not including shipping.
Finally, I don't rebuild these power supplies (I haven't in years), but I'm sure others would like to know how to. Hence, that is why there are repair guides like the Pinwiki available.
Jim

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1
the only parts on a sys1 power supply
that really need replaced are the filter
cap (obviously) and perhaps the .156"
male (female too) connector pins. Replacing other
good parts makes
A) no sense
B) is a waste of money (and no it's not $15,
try ordering the stuff, you'll be easily twice
that with shipping, plus the time involved), and
C) puts the risk of putting of installing
a part incorrectly (or just the wrong part.)

Just replacing good parts makes no sense.
sorry, but that's just *wrong*.

[Gott Lieb?]

Post by c***@provide.net

Post by Gott Lieb?

Post by c***@provide.net
Frankly it's a poor reference.
If you follow what they suggest in your link,
you have managed to replace nearly every
component on the system 1 power supply,
whether they need it or not (and they
probably don't need it.)
and those parts aren't free.
So in addition to possibly mounting something
wrong (backwards, incorrectly, etc.), and
creating a problem that wasn't there to start...
The whole thing, after buying all the parts,
will cost you more than a NEW system1 power supply!
(which are available in the $50 to $65 range.)
freaking brilliant!

So what is the "Clay Way" of doing it? It's nice that you can criticize, but it's less than constructive, and you don't post a better alternative method.
Secondly, it is not all of the components on the power supply.
Third, total cost is probably under $15 not including shipping.
Finally, I don't rebuild these power supplies (I haven't in years), but I'm sure others would like to know how to. Hence, that is why there are repair guides like the Pinwiki available.
Jim

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1
the only parts on a sys1 power supply
that really need replaced are the filter
cap (obviously) and perhaps the .156"
male (female too) connector pins. Replacing other
good parts makes
A) no sense
B) is a waste of money (and no it's not $15,
try ordering the stuff, you'll be easily twice
that with shipping, plus the time involved), and
C) puts the risk of putting of installing
a part incorrectly (or just the wrong part.)
Just replacing good parts makes no sense.
sorry, but that's just *wrong*.

So, it makes more sense to take the power supply apart, replace the header pins and caps on it, and nothing else? Yeah, taking it apart a second or third time when the pots or diodes fail makes much more sense. If you take one of these power supplies apart more than one time, you might as well get an aftermarket replacement.

As for cost, a cap kit is $7.50, which is the bulk of the cost - https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GTLB1-PEC-KIT

I decided to see what the cost is for the suggested parts. You were right. The cost is $3.20 more than what I projected - Loading Image.... If you were to buy larger quantities, (who buys only 6 1N4004 diodes???), the price would go down.

As for the risk, there is a risk with any board repair that you do. I suppose that you are suggesting to just send boards out, and have someone else repair them.

I agree that replacing good parts makes no sense. However, ripping one of these power supplies apart more than one makes even less sense!

Jim

[John Robertson]

Post by Gott Lieb?

Post by c***@provide.net

Post by Gott Lieb?

Post by c***@provide.net
Frankly it's a poor reference.
If you follow what they suggest in your link,
you have managed to replace nearly every
component on the system 1 power supply,
whether they need it or not (and they
probably don't need it.)
and those parts aren't free.
So in addition to possibly mounting something
wrong (backwards, incorrectly, etc.), and
creating a problem that wasn't there to start...
The whole thing, after buying all the parts,
will cost you more than a NEW system1 power supply!
(which are available in the $50 to $65 range.)
freaking brilliant!

So what is the "Clay Way" of doing it? It's nice that you can criticize, but it's less than constructive, and you don't post a better alternative method.
Secondly, it is not all of the components on the power supply.
Third, total cost is probably under $15 not including shipping.
Finally, I don't rebuild these power supplies (I haven't in years), but I'm sure others would like to know how to. Hence, that is why there are repair guides like the Pinwiki available.
Jim

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1
the only parts on a sys1 power supply
that really need replaced are the filter
cap (obviously) and perhaps the .156"
male (female too) connector pins. Replacing other
good parts makes
A) no sense
B) is a waste of money (and no it's not $15,
try ordering the stuff, you'll be easily twice
that with shipping, plus the time involved), and
C) puts the risk of putting of installing
a part incorrectly (or just the wrong part.)
Just replacing good parts makes no sense.
sorry, but that's just *wrong*.

So, it makes more sense to take the power supply apart, replace the header pins and caps on it, and nothing else? Yeah, taking it apart a second or third time when the pots or diodes fail makes much more sense. If you take one of these power supplies apart more than one time, you might as well get an aftermarket replacement.
As for cost, a cap kit is $7.50, which is the bulk of the cost - https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GTLB1-PEC-KIT
I decided to see what the cost is for the suggested parts. You were right. The cost is $3.20 more than what I projected - http://www.papinball.com/temp/Sys1_PS_Rebuild_GPE_Cart.jpg. If you were to buy larger quantities, (who buys only 6 1N4004 diodes???), the price would go down.
As for the risk, there is a risk with any board repair that you do. I suppose that you are suggesting to just send boards out, and have someone else repair them.
I agree that replacing good parts makes no sense. However, ripping one of these power supplies apart more than one makes even less sense!
Jim

You can bench test the System 1 regulator without reassembling the whole
thing. Just watch the test loads to avoid overheating parts.

Considering most of the time problems are related to cracked traces on
the edge connectors or outboard parts touching them up with fresh solder
never hurts.

I assume that going into the test you know where the problem lies and
then that is what you concentrate on.

Shotgun replacement usually leads to more problems in my experience.

John :-#(#

[Gott Lieb?]

Post by John Robertson

Post by Gott Lieb?

Post by c***@provide.net

Post by Gott Lieb?

Post by c***@provide.net
Frankly it's a poor reference.
If you follow what they suggest in your link,
you have managed to replace nearly every
component on the system 1 power supply,
whether they need it or not (and they
probably don't need it.)
and those parts aren't free.
So in addition to possibly mounting something
wrong (backwards, incorrectly, etc.), and
creating a problem that wasn't there to start...
The whole thing, after buying all the parts,
will cost you more than a NEW system1 power supply!
(which are available in the $50 to $65 range.)
freaking brilliant!

So what is the "Clay Way" of doing it? It's nice that you can criticize, but it's less than constructive, and you don't post a better alternative method.
Secondly, it is not all of the components on the power supply.
Third, total cost is probably under $15 not including shipping.
Finally, I don't rebuild these power supplies (I haven't in years), but I'm sure others would like to know how to. Hence, that is why there are repair guides like the Pinwiki available.
Jim

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1
the only parts on a sys1 power supply
that really need replaced are the filter
cap (obviously) and perhaps the .156"
male (female too) connector pins. Replacing other
good parts makes
A) no sense
B) is a waste of money (and no it's not $15,
try ordering the stuff, you'll be easily twice
that with shipping, plus the time involved), and
C) puts the risk of putting of installing
a part incorrectly (or just the wrong part.)
Just replacing good parts makes no sense.
sorry, but that's just *wrong*.

So, it makes more sense to take the power supply apart, replace the header pins and caps on it, and nothing else? Yeah, taking it apart a second or third time when the pots or diodes fail makes much more sense. If you take one of these power supplies apart more than one time, you might as well get an aftermarket replacement.
As for cost, a cap kit is $7.50, which is the bulk of the cost - https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GTLB1-PEC-KIT
I decided to see what the cost is for the suggested parts. You were right. The cost is $3.20 more than what I projected - http://www.papinball.com/temp/Sys1_PS_Rebuild_GPE_Cart.jpg. If you were to buy larger quantities, (who buys only 6 1N4004 diodes???), the price would go down.
As for the risk, there is a risk with any board repair that you do. I suppose that you are suggesting to just send boards out, and have someone else repair them.
I agree that replacing good parts makes no sense. However, ripping one of these power supplies apart more than one makes even less sense!
Jim

You can bench test the System 1 regulator without reassembling the whole
thing. Just watch the test loads to avoid overheating parts.
Considering most of the time problems are related to cracked traces on
the edge connectors or outboard parts touching them up with fresh solder
never hurts.
I assume that going into the test you know where the problem lies and
then that is what you concentrate on.
Shotgun replacement usually leads to more problems in my experience.
John :-#(#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
[phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

I meant initially repairing it with minimal parts, only to have it crap out weeks or months later. Not changing parts, put it back together, having it not work, take it apart, replace more parts, lather, rinse, repeat. Changing the parts mentioned would be a preemptive maintenance, IMO not shotgunning.

And I agree, the shotgun approach is never good. Nothing is learned out of the blanket repair, and more problems can occur. Again, I don't think this a shotgun approach, unless I read something wrong from Force Flow's excerpt in the Pinwiki.

Jim

[c***@provide.net]

Shotgun replacement usually leads to more problems in my experience...

Bingo! we have a winner. Thank you John.

And though i know the cost for parts isn't freaky
high, after shipping, you have hit about 50% of
the cost of a new power supply. (Shipping has become
expensive, it's not cheap any more.) And when you
hit 50% of a new power supply cost, that's when
i personally usually just pony up and buy new.
(Using Rottendog as my price point, those power
supplies are usually available at shows in Jim's
booth for around $40 to $50, if you're nice to him.)

[Gott Lieb?]

Post by c***@provide.net

Shotgun replacement usually leads to more problems in my experience...

Bingo! we have a winner. Thank you John.
And though i know the cost for parts isn't freaky
high, after shipping, you have hit about 50% of
the cost of a new power supply. (Shipping has become
expensive, it's not cheap any more.) And when you
hit 50% of a new power supply cost, that's when
i personally usually just pony up and buy new.
(Using Rottendog as my price point, those power
supplies are usually available at shows in Jim's
booth for around $40 to $50, if you're nice to him.)

No more shotgunning than some recommendations made by others on other boards (won't name names here). It's preemptive maintenance in my mind. You obviously did not read my reply above.

Not certain where you've been, but Jim (Rottendog) does not do shows anymore. Your price point is invalid.

Jim

[seymour.shabow]

Post by Gott Lieb?
No more shotgunning than some recommendations made by others on other
boards (won't name names here). It's preemptive maintenance in my
mind.

Also, if you actually know HOW to solder, you won't have much of a
problem. It's SHOCKING how many people that claim to know how to solder
and they have no fucking clue how to do it properly.

Yes, I've dealt with a ton of boards that the soldering monkeys have
been at with lifted traces, pads, heat damaged components, etc.

[Gott Lieb?]

Post by seymour.shabow

Post by Gott Lieb?
No more shotgunning than some recommendations made by others on other
boards (won't name names here). It's preemptive maintenance in my
mind.

Also, if you actually know HOW to solder, you won't have much of a
problem. It's SHOCKING how many people that claim to know how to solder
and they have no fucking clue how to do it properly.
Yes, I've dealt with a ton of boards that the soldering monkeys have
been at with lifted traces, pads, heat damaged components, etc.

You mean like this one? ;) Loading Image...

Jim

[c***@provide.net]

i tend to do as little as possible to system1
power supplies as possible (assuming it's working).
I replace the 12 volt filter cap from the top side,
without "splitting the case." I generally just
polish the male header pins (and replace the
female), opposed to replacement. Do a wiggle test
on the header pins. if they do not pass, then
yes, must split the case.

In my opinion, less is more with system1 power
supplies. the boards are single sided, and it's
easy to screw them up. telling people to replace
good parts just to make one feel better, in my
opinion, is not a good idea. and yes, most people
can't solder.

[The Junkman]

Post by c***@provide.net
i tend to do as little as possible to system1
power supplies as possible (assuming it's working).
I replace the 12 volt filter cap from the top side,
without "splitting the case." I generally just
polish the male header pins (and replace the
female), opposed to replacement. Do a wiggle test
on the header pins. if they do not pass, then
yes, must split the case.
In my opinion, less is more with system1 power
supplies. the boards are single sided, and it's
easy to screw them up. telling people to replace
good parts just to make one feel better, in my
opinion, is not a good idea. and yes, most people
can't solder.

Were talking about the Cpu:)

[barakandl]

Post by c***@provide.net
i tend to do as little as possible to system1
power supplies as possible (assuming it's working).
I replace the 12 volt filter cap from the top side,
without "splitting the case." I generally just
polish the male header pins (and replace the
female), opposed to replacement. Do a wiggle test
on the header pins. if they do not pass, then
yes, must split the case.
In my opinion, less is more with system1 power
supplies. the boards are single sided, and it's
easy to screw them up. telling people to replace
good parts just to make one feel better, in my
opinion, is not a good idea. and yes, most people
can't solder.

I fixed one for my Dad's Charlies Angel pinball machine. We cleverly put the remote battery pack above the power supply.... the batteries leaked and dripped all over the PS... damn

What a hunk of shit this power board is. I fixed the one, but never again. The design is terrible. From the fact you can't get to the solder side without removing a big ass transistor to the stupid amount of zener diode regulation... ahhh! I will just say 'F IT" in the future and buy a replacement repro.

The MPU is not far from the power board. If spider chips are toasted by battery damage... forget it, buy a repro.

Gottlieb System 1 is the ONLY board set i would recommend repros for.... and i am about to start trying to sell repro boards... heheheh

[Pin Del]

Post by barakandl

Post by c***@provide.net
i tend to do as little as possible to system1
power supplies as possible (assuming it's working).
I replace the 12 volt filter cap from the top side,
without "splitting the case." I generally just
polish the male header pins (and replace the
female), opposed to replacement. Do a wiggle test
on the header pins. if they do not pass, then
yes, must split the case.
In my opinion, less is more with system1 power
supplies. the boards are single sided, and it's
easy to screw them up. telling people to replace
good parts just to make one feel better, in my
opinion, is not a good idea. and yes, most people
can't solder.

I fixed one for my Dad's Charlies Angel pinball machine. We cleverly put the remote battery pack above the power supply.... the batteries leaked and dripped all over the PS... damn
What a hunk of shit this power board is. I fixed the one, but never again. The design is terrible. From the fact you can't get to the solder side without removing a big ass transistor to the stupid amount of zener diode regulation... ahhh! I will just say 'F IT" in the future and buy a replacement repro.
The MPU is not far from the power board. If spider chips are toasted by battery damage... forget it, buy a repro.
Gottlieb System 1 is the ONLY board set i would recommend repros for.... and i am about to start trying to sell repro boards... heheheh

Hey Andrew !
If you need displays for a system one or 80 game ( 4 or 6 digit, shoot me a email !.

Derrill ,

[Dave Kon]

Derrill , Thanks again 2 out 4 working but just what my Cleopatra needed !

looks good and i have a credit display !

[Pin Del]

Post by Dave Kon
Derrill , Thanks again 2 out 4 working but just what my Cleopatra needed !
http://youtu.be/CxZHGuLYqdY looks good and i have a credit display !

Dave,
I'd be happy to send more !, Game looks good to, but <cough> you need to practice up :) .

Pin-Del,

[Dave Kon]

Post by Pin Del

Post by Dave Kon
Derrill , Thanks again 2 out 4 working but just what my Cleopatra needed !
http://youtu.be/CxZHGuLYqdY looks good and i have a credit display !

Dave,
I'd be happy to send more !, Game looks good to, but <cough> you need to practice up :) .
Pin-Del,

Hard to hold cam and play ...Yeah thats it !

[seymour.shabow]

Post by Gott Lieb?

Post by seymour.shabow

Post by Gott Lieb?
No more shotgunning than some recommendations made by others on other
boards (won't name names here). It's preemptive maintenance in my
mind.

Also, if you actually know HOW to solder, you won't have much of a
problem. It's SHOCKING how many people that claim to know how to solder
and they have no fucking clue how to do it properly.
Yes, I've dealt with a ton of boards that the soldering monkeys have
been at with lifted traces, pads, heat damaged components, etc.

You mean like this one? ;) http://www.papinball.com/temp/WOW.JPG

That's actually not that bad....compared to some....

[Gott Lieb?]

Post by seymour.shabow

Post by Gott Lieb?

Post by seymour.shabow

Post by Gott Lieb?
No more shotgunning than some recommendations made by others on other
boards (won't name names here). It's preemptive maintenance in my
mind.

Also, if you actually know HOW to solder, you won't have much of a
problem. It's SHOCKING how many people that claim to know how to solder
and they have no fucking clue how to do it properly.
Yes, I've dealt with a ton of boards that the soldering monkeys have
been at with lifted traces, pads, heat damaged components, etc.

You mean like this one? ;) http://www.papinball.com/temp/WOW.JPG

That's actually not that bad....compared to some....

I don't know, Scott. All of the eyelets and traces in the HV section are GONE! The front of the board is pretty impressive too! ;)

Jim

[Force Flow]

Post by Gott Lieb?

Post by c***@provide.net

Post by Gott Lieb?

Post by c***@provide.net
Frankly it's a poor reference.
If you follow what they suggest in your link,
you have managed to replace nearly every
component on the system 1 power supply,
whether they need it or not (and they
probably don't need it.)
and those parts aren't free.
So in addition to possibly mounting something
wrong (backwards, incorrectly, etc.), and
creating a problem that wasn't there to start...
The whole thing, after buying all the parts,
will cost you more than a NEW system1 power supply!
(which are available in the $50 to $65 range.)
freaking brilliant!

So what is the "Clay Way" of doing it? It's nice that you can criticize, but it's less than constructive, and you don't post a better alternative method.
Secondly, it is not all of the components on the power supply.
Third, total cost is probably under $15 not including shipping.
Finally, I don't rebuild these power supplies (I haven't in years), but I'm sure others would like to know how to. Hence, that is why there are repair guides like the Pinwiki available.
Jim

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1
the only parts on a sys1 power supply
that really need replaced are the filter
cap (obviously) and perhaps the .156"
male (female too) connector pins. Replacing other
good parts makes
A) no sense
B) is a waste of money (and no it's not $15,
try ordering the stuff, you'll be easily twice
that with shipping, plus the time involved), and
C) puts the risk of putting of installing
a part incorrectly (or just the wrong part.)
Just replacing good parts makes no sense.
sorry, but that's just *wrong*.

So, it makes more sense to take the power supply apart, replace the header pins and caps on it, and nothing else? Yeah, taking it apart a second or third time when the pots or diodes fail makes much more sense. If you take one of these power supplies apart more than one time, you might as well get an aftermarket replacement.
As for cost, a cap kit is $7.50, which is the bulk of the cost - https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GTLB1-PEC-KIT
I decided to see what the cost is for the suggested parts. You were right. The cost is $3.20 more than what I projected - http://www.papinball.com/temp/Sys1_PS_Rebuild_GPE_Cart.jpg. If you were to buy larger quantities, (who buys only 6 1N4004 diodes???), the price would go down.
As for the risk, there is a risk with any board repair that you do. I suppose that you are suggesting to just send boards out, and have someone else repair them.
I agree that replacing good parts makes no sense. However, ripping one of these power supplies apart more than one makes even less sense!
Jim

Actually, the 1N4004 come in packs of 20 from GPE, so you would only need a quantity of one. That brings the price of the actual components to $13.20 (plus shipping).

Plus, if you tend to rebuild stuff like this, you probably already have the diodes and header pins, and have other parts on the order, so there's the possibility of bulk savings there.

But, rebuilding a known good power supply for roughly $15 versus $50-$75 for a new power supply is attractive for someone who can do board work but doesn't want to shell out the money for a brand new board.

The guide isn't quite a shotgun repair--more preventive maintenance, as Jim says. It recommends replacing the caps, header pins, pots, and heat-stressed/underrated diodes. Not much more than what you would normally do to refurbish any other boards (such as classic bally/stern rectifier boards).

But, full disclosure: I wrote that particular guide a couple months back. And I really appreciate the feedback on it--it's interesting to hear what some of the community experts think of it.

I started out wanting to rebuild a perfectly good power supply instead of spending the $50-$75 on a new power supply, but no guides existed unlike with other boards. So, I conferred with Ed (GPE) and a few other individuals on some of the rebuild details, rebuilt a few power supplies, learned a fair amount about how it operates, and arrived at this set of recommended parts and instructions. The idea was to only replace the minimal number of parts as necessary, and address underrated or failure-prone parts as a matter of regular maintenance, so that you would only have to rebuild this power supply *once* and not have to touch it again for another 30 years.

If you think any specific improvements can be made to the instructions, I am happy to hear them. I would want it to be as correct and accurate as possible.

[The Junkman]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I am in the process of repairing a gottlieb dragon pinball game. I have rebuilt the power supply and it is functioning nominally. all the voltages are good. I connect the cpu up to the power supply and also with different display units individually. the power supply is also connected and powering the display units and all display unit power is within specs. I put leds on the 5 volt and -12 volts on the cpu. the 5 volt lights but the -12 volt does not. the -12 volt reads between -8 and -9 with the cpu plugged in. the displays do nothing when I turn on the system I think the cpu is not working. I have also tested the board quickly with a computer power supply and the voltage for the -12 drops down just like the gottlieb supply. I was wondering if this power drop of the -12 would cause the board not to boot. secondly if this is the problem what should I be looking for to fix it. I got the board with a little bit of battery leak but not much. I removed it and neutralized with vinegar and water and washed with denatured alcohol. the chip near the switch input was a little tarnished so I removed it and cleaned and socketed it all traces in the area appear to be intact and conducting properly.

:)

[r***@gmail.com]

please do not fight abut these things. I really appreciate the help and advice I am, getting on the power supply. when I was looking at the power supply one v resistor was bad for 5 volts. and an scr had a crack in it. I also had a n4004 rocking that had a broken trace and the pmd was bad. it was easier for me to order the big daddy rebuild kit for 20 dollars and save on any finding of bad parts later and paying more for shipping since I do not have a sufficient spare parts inventory and driving to get spare parts is not an easy option. I wanted to make sure the supply worked perfectly because the cpu board according to docs wants these powers in tolerance and steve young had this to say on his website.
(Note: The above board is only compatible with original Gottlieb® Boards, Ni-Wumpf Driver Board, and/or GPE Power Supplies. Suggest checking with Ni-Wumpf before using with replacement boards from other vendors) he is referring to the niwumpf mark II board. I could not find any gpe power supplies in case I had to go to a plan b and buy a new cpu but I wanted to make sure I was not working at odds against myself. Once done I do not want to be annoyed by a reoccurring problem of an iffy power supply

[John Robertson]

Post by r***@gmail.com
please do not fight abut these things. I really appreciate the help and advice I am, getting on the power supply. when I was looking at the power supply one v resistor was bad for 5 volts. and an scr had a crack in it. I also had a n4004 rocking that had a broken trace and the pmd was bad. it was easier for me to order the big daddy rebuild kit for 20 dollars and save on any finding of bad parts later and paying more for shipping since I do not have a sufficient spare parts inventory and driving to get spare parts is not an easy option. I wanted to make sure the supply worked perfectly because the cpu board according to docs wants these powers in tolerance and steve young had this to say on his website.
(Note: The above board is only compatible with original Gottlieb® Boards, Ni-Wumpf Driver Board, and/or GPE Power Supplies. Suggest checking with Ni-Wumpf before using with replacement boards from other vendors) he is referring to the niwumpf mark II board. I could not find any gpe power supplies in case I had to go to a plan b and buy a new cpu but I wanted to make sure I was not working at odds against myself. Once done I do not want to be annoyed by a reoccurring problem of an iffy power supply

We sell authorized GPE supplies...

http://www.flippers.com/catalog/product_info.php/system-regulator-designed-p-2793

Also the X-Pin version which should work just fine as well.

John :-#)#

[r***@gmail.com]

Well I tested it yesterday and I didn't have any luck. the cpu alive would not fire up nor would the displays come on. the reset circuit went from - voltage to +5 on start up it was too fast for my meter to register anything more then -7 on the meter before it changed in a split second. I am getting clock pulses and my logic probe is getting a square wave on the pins from tc1 1-13 I am at a loss for why the board is doing its things I think the board might be gone

[The Junkman]

Post by r***@gmail.com
Well I tested it yesterday and I didn't have any luck. the cpu alive would not fire up nor would the displays come on. the reset circuit went from - voltage to +5 on start up it was too fast for my meter to register anything more then -7 on the meter before it changed in a split second. I am getting clock pulses and my logic probe is getting a square wave on the pins from tc1 1-13 I am at a loss for why the board is doing its things I think the board might be gone

Sounds like the reset is working. But the board is still dead. You need to do more tests. Use Clays Guide on Dead Board. Here is the link. Read and test. http://www.pinrepair.com/ Great repair guide:)

Mark

[r***@gmail.com]

update. have bought new PI-1/X4 All-in-one board for pinball and am seeing how bad all connectors were and am currently replacing them to make it work. Since this machine is a friends house I have limited time to tinker on it at his house though I have far greater time to work on stuff at my home. I will not let the original cpu go without a big fight. I now have a good bench power source hooked up the the cpu and the leds for 5 and -12 volts work fine now that I reworked them. I checked the voltage at tc1 for the -12 to 5 volts and that is working fine. the clock crystal is sending out a signal according to the o scope. tc2 11 and 12 are getting signals. tc1 1-13 are pulsing and giving signals. no alive led comes on the sn7448n chips though I have recorded the voltages at the pins and was wondering if maybe the chips are bad. reading from topleft ccw to top right 1 5v 2 5v 3 5v 4 5v 5 5v 6 5v 7 5v 8 0v 9 0v 10 0v 11 0v 12 0v 13 0v 14 0v 15 0v 16 5 volts so pins 1-8 and 16 have 5 volts while all the other pins are 0 volts I should think that with those voltages I should have gotten something on pins 9-15. should I invest in new sn7448n chips or look elseware

[GPE]

wrote in message news:15fd2d5e-f51c-4dea-94a5-***@googlegroups.com...

update. have bought new PI-1/X4 All-in-one board for pinball and am seeing
how bad all connectors were and am currently replacing them to make it work.
Since this machine is a friends house I have limited time to tinker on it at
his house though I have far greater time to work on stuff at my home. I
will not let the original cpu go without a big fight. I now have a good
bench power source hooked up the the cpu and the leds for 5 and -12 volts
work fine now that I reworked them. I checked the voltage at tc1 for
the -12 to 5 volts and that is working fine. the clock crystal is sending
out a signal according to the o scope. tc2 11 and 12 are getting signals.
tc1 1-13 are pulsing and giving signals. no alive led comes on the sn7448n
chips though I have recorded the voltages at the pins and was wondering if
maybe the chips are bad. reading from topleft ccw to top right 1 5v 2 5v
3 5v 4 5v 5 5v 6 5v 7 5v 8 0v 9 0v 10 0v 11 0v 12
0v 13 0v 14 0v 15 0v 16 5 volts so pins 1-8 and 16 have 5 volts
while all the other pins are 0 volts I should think that with those
voltages I should have gotten something on pins 9-15. should I invest in
new sn7448n chips or look elseware

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pascal makes a quite nice board.
Edge connectors -- yeah, they suck. Fortunately the system 1 connectors can
usually be repinned.

Regarding your board - With the voltages you gave, the 7448 is displaying
exactly what it is being told to display... nothing.
The 7448 is not the problem. The 7448 A. B, C and D input values are all
high which says U6 is not being set to anything. Either CPU isn't setting
the outputs or U8 isn't obeying... tough to tell with these values.

[r***@gmail.com]

ok do you have any suggestions on what I should do to test the next sections how do I see if u6 is working or u8 I am willing to check a few things if you would instruct me. regarding the pascal board I have no score from switches 14 24 34 and 44 when I get a chance I am going to look at a1j7 pin 6 the purple wire. I am also scoring when hitting left flipper but will check that later after switches fixed and I try to realign the vari target on the left. the last person who had it had the relay able to move the thickness of my finger so that the latch would grab the ratchets. after all that is re set will I start to worry about the flipper scoring, it might be related to the vari target not fully resetting and bouncing when the flippers move. I just want to know for sure that my old cpu is truly dead before I junk it.

[r***@gmail.com]

while testing my power supply said the mpu board was drawing 1.2 amps of 5 volt power. u5 was getting hot. I backed the current down to .75 to keep the chip from over heating. I tested z29 and z27 z9 and z28 and they all worked great.
testing z8 is where it went bad both at this reduced current and at 1.2 amps the chip did not register any pulsing in the set of pins one was locked on high and the other was low 1,3,5,11 were locked on high. I guess this means the u5 has gone bad.

on the machine now using the p4 board. I was having problems with getting scores while using left flipper and switches 14 24 34 44 were not working. I had the a1j7 connector that should have been in pin 6 in pin 5. now the scoring works properly. the vari target was a freaking mess. the coil is mounted inside of a box type looking bracket except one side of the bracket was bent at a 45 degree angle instead of parallel with the opposite wall and perpendicular to the floor. the latch plate stop was so far out of position the allow the latch to engage the pawl of the vari target that I could put my finger between it and the latch plate. that is all adjusted and working fine now. the thing that is pissing me off the most was that someone had drilled and mounted 2 posts in the playfield. one was to the left of the right vari target at the end of the 4 rollover run. the other was very low between the flippers and if the ball went to the right then it got stuck. I am at this moment removing and patching the holes. time to do touchup on a good looking playfield which I am horrible at. cpu lights are going out on me but a rap to the cab puts them back on. going to have to check the slow blo fuse connections and the playfield plugs.

[John Robertson]

Post by r***@gmail.com
while testing my power supply said the mpu board was drawing 1.2 amps of 5 volt power. u5 was getting hot. I backed the current down to .75 to keep the chip from over heating. I tested z29 and z27 z9 and z28 and they all worked great.
testing z8 is where it went bad both at this reduced current and at 1.2 amps the chip did not register any pulsing in the set of pins one was locked on high and the other was low 1,3,5,11 were locked on high. I guess this means the u5 has gone bad.
on the machine now using the p4 board. I was having problems with getting scores while using left flipper and switches 14 24 34 44 were not working. I had the a1j7 connector that should have been in pin 6 in pin 5. now the scoring works properly. the vari target was a freaking mess. the coil is mounted inside of a box type looking bracket except one side of the bracket was bent at a 45 degree angle instead of parallel with the opposite wall and perpendicular to the floor. the latch plate stop was so far out of position the allow the latch to engage the pawl of the vari target that I could put my finger between it and the latch plate. that is all adjusted and working fine now. the thing that is pissing me off the most was that someone had drilled and mounted 2 posts in the playfield. one was to the left of the right vari target at the end of the 4 rollover run. the other was very low between the flippers and if the ball went to the right then it got stuck. I am at this mom

ent removing and patching the holes. time to do touchup on a good looking playfield which I am horrible at. cpu lights are going out on me but a rap to the cab puts them back on. going to have to check the slow blo fuse connections and the playfield plugs.
If U5 (A1752) is getting hot then you need a replacement for it, and you
need to replace most (if not all) of your switch matrix ICs as they are
damaged too.

Good luck finding a good A1752, not to mention you must get the SAME
suffix on any replacement for it to work. So your IC may have A1752CD,
the CD is the code revision and must match the replacement A1752, and be
one letter higher than the A1753 (U4 - A1753CC in this case). If it does
not match it may not work or will be a bit weird in operation. I only
have run into A1752CD and A1752CF AIR.

The biggest problem with the A1752s is they are the most likely IC to be
damaged on the MPU if anything goes awry. As switch matrix is easily the
most sensitive circuit in the machine to accidental stray voltages,
there are a LOT of system 1 MPUs floating around with blown A1752.

John :-#(#

[r***@gmail.com]

which other ic should I replace? I tested z29 and z27 z9 and z28 and they all worked great. according to the troubleshooting guide they functioned properly. it wasn't until I got to z8 that I did not see and pulsing occur just locked on high on the first pin and the second in the group was low and that was the same for each group

[r***@gmail.com]

I have tried purchasing some other used boards for about 20 to see if I could find what I needed but have not been able to find an operational unit. the boards themselves will do good just for parts if I need them and they have proved to be useful to help me practice my desoldering skills. I believe that the board that I am currently fixated on is in good order except for chip u4 a1753ee. every other test on the board that I have been trying to run has shown positive results. the board does not boot up but I get reset and pusing on the data channels and strobing on the switch matrix but I can not get a response when I try to stimulate a coin drop sound or points following procedure so I think u4 is dead and since that has some rom in it I believe that is killing my project. does anyone have a good u4 chip a1753ee for sale at a reasonable price to sell me

[r***@gmail.com]

I was going through some dead boards and discovered a u5 chip which I replaced in my dead board. I am now getting signal pulses on pin 15 of z16. as of this moment my board does not have a rom chip on it. my z8 chip is not showing any pulses at all. the u5 chip I am trying to use had a broken pin which I am trying to fix at this moment I have tried to grind the case down so that it is exposed in the case and I will soon be able to solder to it. the pin is the first inside row pin next to the #1 pin. Any ideas what could be wrong or is u5 dead in the necessary components. I do not know the naming convention for a spider chip with double rows.
on z8 I do have alternating pre charged pins its the inputs on this inverter that is not getting any signal

[John Robertson]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I was going through some dead boards and discovered a u5 chip which I replaced in my dead board. I am now getting signal pulses on pin 15 of z16. as of this moment my board does not have a rom chip on it. my z8 chip is not showing any pulses at all. the u5 chip I am trying to use had a broken pin which I am trying to fix at this moment I have tried to grind the case down so that it is exposed in the case and I will soon be able to solder to it. the pin is the first inside row pin next to the #1 pin. Any ideas what could be wrong or is u5 dead in the necessary components. I do not know the naming convention for a spider chip with double rows.
on z8 I do have alternating pre charged pins its the inputs on this inverter that is not getting any signal

U5 is RAM/ROM/& I/O so, yes, it is mission critical. The pin you mention
is #3 if counting away from the edge pin beside the dot. U5 must also be
within one letter of U$ for the board to have a chance to boot up. U5
can be A1752CF and U4 must be A1753CE. Note that U5 numbers are always
A1752YX(+1 - letter count) and U4 are always A1753YX

The #3 pin goes to an unused gate and is not needed.

Z8 pins 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 should all be pulsing IF the MPU is running,
they are the Switch Strobe lines.

Z19 pin 15 is only one of many pins (13, 12,11, 10, 9, 15, 14, 1, 2, 6,
7, & 4) that should be busy IF the MPU is running. Same for Z17

The board will boot without a PROM, you just can't start a game as none
of the switches and lamps are defined the computer will lock up if you
coin and then press the start button.

You CAN run the Self Tests even without the PROM, but that is all you
can do as far as 'playing' is concerned. Still you would be pretty sure
you had a working board if the switch, lamp, and solenoid tests all are
good.

You can't fix those boards with no understanding of how they work,
except for blind luck.

John :-#)#