Team EM - 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool Project

[Richiep]

Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool.
To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same?

Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it.

Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

[DirtFlipper]

Post by Richiep
Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool.
To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same?
Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it.
Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

The fuse values should be ink stamped right onto the bottom board, near the fuse holders. They usually are covered in dirt and grime, so hard to see, but if you clean that area off, you'll see them (might be faint). The three main ones are usually 10amp. The transformer one is usually a 5amp slo-blo. They ink-stamped the values onto the board instead of using the paper cards.

The late 50's ones are not too much different than a 60's style - still has steppers, coils, relays, and switches. The one new item might be the 100K stepper (the really big stepper unit in the backbox). And the bulb scoring of course.

The steppers are often seized up if the game's been sitting for a long time. If it wasn't running when acquired, might consider deferring a power up until after it's all been rebuilt/restored, so any other surprises have been addressed first.

[Mark Fishbein]

Post by Richiep
Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool.
To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same?
Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it.
Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

The fuse values should be ink stamped right onto the bottom board, near the fuse holders. They usually are covered in dirt and grime, so hard to see, but if you clean that area off, you'll see them (might be faint). The three main ones are usually 10amp. The transformer one is usually a 5amp slo-blo. They ink-stamped the values onto the board instead of using the paper cards.
The late 50's ones are not too much different than a 60's style - still has steppers, coils, relays, and switches. The one new item might be the 100K stepper (the really big stepper unit in the backbox). And the bulb scoring of course.
The steppers are often seized up if the game's been sitting for a long time. If it wasn't running when acquired, might consider deferring a power up until after it's all been rebuilt/restored, so any other surprises have been addressed first.

My Roto Pool motor is running non stop after start up. Problem started with scoring stopped on 10Ks column though slingshots and pop up bumpers are operational. Where do I look for problem?

[John Robertson]

Post by Mark Fishbein

Post by Richiep
Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool.
To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same?
Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it.
Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

The fuse values should be ink stamped right onto the bottom board, near the fuse holders. They usually are covered in dirt and grime, so hard to see, but if you clean that area off, you'll see them (might be faint). The three main ones are usually 10amp. The transformer one is usually a 5amp slo-blo. They ink-stamped the values onto the board instead of using the paper cards.
The late 50's ones are not too much different than a 60's style - still has steppers, coils, relays, and switches. The one new item might be the 100K stepper (the really big stepper unit in the backbox). And the bulb scoring of course.
The steppers are often seized up if the game's been sitting for a long time. If it wasn't running when acquired, might consider deferring a power up until after it's all been rebuilt/restored, so any other surprises have been addressed first.

My Roto Pool motor is running non stop after start up. Problem started with scoring stopped on 10Ks column though slingshots and pop up bumpers are operational. Where do I look for problem?

You should have schematics - you can order them from The Pinball
Resource - identify the solenoid for the Roto-Unit and see what
energizes it, and check each circuit. I expect you will find a closed
switch on the playfield, most likely a rollover that is not coming fully
up and opening the contacts. Start with the Roto switches...

John :-#)#

[Todd Newman]

Post by Richiep
Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool.
To date, this is my oldest game/project.  Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same?
Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game.  Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it.
Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

Rich;
I did a Roto Pool a couple of years ago for a friend. It was a shit
ton of work, but it was fun and challenging and paid off with a "best
woodrail" award at MPE.

Major differences to wedgies?
- A lot more logic is in the steppers, including the startup
sequence. If you are not used to it, this can be a puzzler. I
documented it and put it up on Pinwiki - but it got jacked around into
an odd spot, so here it is:

Roto Pool Start Sequence:
1. Push start button, pulls in start S relay
2. Start relay resets 100K unit, through NC switch on motor 1C closing
switch at -1 position on 100K unit
3. Closed switch at -1 position pulls in U relay
4. U relay pulls in ball release coil, which remains on by the U
relay, a switch on the unit itself and a flip/flop on the N relay
5. Switch on the U relay is closed, allowing pulsing of the 10K unit
though switch on motor 1A
6. 10 K unit continues to pulse until it hits position 9 or 19 or 29
on the 10K unit, then the "bridge" there, in series with the NO switch
(which closes once/pulse) on the 10K unit pulls in the 0-9 coil relay
7. The M relay pulls in and is held in by it's own switch and a NC
switch on the 10K unit and remains on until the 10K unit steps. The
100K step moves the 100K stepper off the -1 position, opening the
switch on that keeps the U relay pulled in.
8. The U relay releases – the 10K unit can no longer be pulsed though
the switch on the U relay.
9. The N flip/flop switch activates at some point, releasing the ball
release coil (IMO, this is a poor design, leading to a burnt coil for
any number of reasons (no FMEAs at Gottlieb®?)

Parts are a lot cheaper and lighter, so that will cause you some
trouble.

EVERYTHING needs to be gone through. Time is your enemy here. You
will likely deal with rusted and seized parts. Coil sleeves are brass
and may need cleaning or you may have to replace the whole coil.
Bakelight discs may need replacing. Note that part numbers are
different due to slight changes and are often not interchangeable. My
recommendation is to spend $20 on the parts list. I did and it was
money well spent. Relays are different, but work the same.

Pictures, or it didn't happen?

https://plus.google.com/photos/118003252068396696045/albums/5633069365238980481

https://plus.google.com/photos/118003252068396696045/albums/5577106063034850945

Todd
Team EM

[Frank Furhter]

Post by Todd Newman

Post by Richiep
Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool.
To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same?
Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it.
Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

Rich;
I did a Roto Pool a couple of years ago for a friend. It was a shit
ton of work, but it was fun and challenging and paid off with a "best
woodrail" award at MPE.
Major differences to wedgies?
- A lot more logic is in the steppers, including the startup
sequence. If you are not used to it, this can be a puzzler. I
documented it and put it up on Pinwiki - but it got jacked around into
1. Push start button, pulls in start S relay
2. Start relay resets 100K unit, through NC switch on motor 1C closing
switch at -1 position on 100K unit
3. Closed switch at -1 position pulls in U relay
4. U relay pulls in ball release coil, which remains on by the U
relay, a switch on the unit itself and a flip/flop on the N relay
5. Switch on the U relay is closed, allowing pulsing of the 10K unit
though switch on motor 1A
6. 10 K unit continues to pulse until it hits position 9 or 19 or 29
on the 10K unit, then the "bridge" there, in series with the NO switch
(which closes once/pulse) on the 10K unit pulls in the 0-9 coil relay
7. The M relay pulls in and is held in by it's own switch and a NC
switch on the 10K unit and remains on until the 10K unit steps. The
100K step moves the 100K stepper off the -1 position, opening the
switch on that keeps the U relay pulled in.
8. The U relay releases – the 10K unit can no longer be pulsed though
the switch on the U relay.
9. The N flip/flop switch activates at some point, releasing the ball
release coil (IMO, this is a poor design, leading to a burnt coil for
any number of reasons (no FMEAs at Gottlieb®?)
Parts are a lot cheaper and lighter, so that will cause you some
trouble.
EVERYTHING needs to be gone through. Time is your enemy here. You
will likely deal with rusted and seized parts. Coil sleeves are brass
and may need cleaning or you may have to replace the whole coil.
Bakelight discs may need replacing. Note that part numbers are
different due to slight changes and are often not interchangeable. My
recommendation is to spend $20 on the parts list. I did and it was
money well spent. Relays are different, but work the same.
Pictures, or it didn't happen?
https://plus.google.com/photos/118003252068396696045/albums/5633069365238980481
https://plus.google.com/photos/118003252068396696045/albums/5577106063034850945
Todd
Team EM

See if you can't get them to fix that jacking around placement.
Information should not be hard to find on PinWiki, it should be very
easy to search and find, otherwise it might as well not be there.

[Richiep]

So, I've got my game back together and have done an overall going over of things, jones plugs, switches, steppers all freed up and moving.....my game only gets partially thru the start up sequence.

1. Push start button, pulls in start S relay (This happens OK)
2. Start relay resets 100K unit, through NC switch on motor 1C closing
switch at -1 position on 100K unit (100K unit doesnt reset)
3. Closed switch at -1 position pulls in U relay (U relay does pull in)

Then everything stops here.....do the balls need to be in the game for it to start up? I'm thinking maybe there's a dirty or non connecting switch on the U relay that is causing everything to stop here....thoughts?

[DirtFlipper]

Post by Richiep
So, I've got my game back together and have done an overall going over of things, jones plugs, switches, steppers all freed up and moving.....my game only gets partially thru the start up sequence.
1. Push start button, pulls in start S relay (This happens OK)
2. Start relay resets 100K unit, through NC switch on motor 1C closing
switch at -1 position on 100K unit (100K unit doesnt reset)
3. Closed switch at -1 position pulls in U relay (U relay does pull in)
Then everything stops here.....do the balls need to be in the game for it to start up? I'm thinking maybe there's a dirty or non connecting switch on the U relay that is causing everything to stop here....thoughts?

What does the 10K unit do? Is it on a zero position already? (shows 0 for 10K points on the backglass). If it's already at zero and the ball trough is released, then are the flippers and playfield active? If so, put the balls in and play.

If the 10K unit is not at a zero position, the next thing it needs to be doing is stepping the 10K unit continuously until it hits one of the zero positions on the disc (there are three of them).

[Richiep]

Post by DirtFlipper

Post by Richiep
So, I've got my game back together and have done an overall going over of things, jones plugs, switches, steppers all freed up and moving.....my game only gets partially thru the start up sequence.
1. Push start button, pulls in start S relay (This happens OK)
2. Start relay resets 100K unit, through NC switch on motor 1C closing
switch at -1 position on 100K unit (100K unit doesnt reset)
3. Closed switch at -1 position pulls in U relay (U relay does pull in)
Then everything stops here.....do the balls need to be in the game for it to start up? I'm thinking maybe there's a dirty or non connecting switch on the U relay that is causing everything to stop here....thoughts?

What does the 10K unit do? Is it on a zero position already? (shows 0 for 10K points on the backglass). If it's already at zero and the ball trough is released, then are the flippers and playfield active? If so, put the balls in and play.
If the 10K unit is not at a zero position, the next thing it needs to be doing is stepping the 10K unit continuously until it hits one of the zero positions on the disc (there are three of them).

I'm making good progress onmy game,much more than I thought I'd be able to....I'm almost getting thru the start up sequence, everything seems to be OK, except that in order to stop the score motor running on during a reset, I have to manually hit the 100K coil stepper plunger.....maybe still an issue with motor switch 1C?

Also, one other issue I'm having with the 100k stepper, after the game is reset and I start to play, the 100k plunger relay stays locked on when it is activated by one of the stand up switches on the playfield. I cleaned the 100K relay and if I manually hit that relay it activates and releases the 100k coil just fine....so I'm guessing something between the stand up switches and the 100k relay there must be something that is dirty or maybe gapped too close....but what....I'll try to track it down next time I get back to working on my game.

[Richiep]

Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool. To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same? Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it. Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

Thanks for the info guys....Todd, that's an amazing transformation...I thought my game was in bad shape, but from your pictures, it looks like mine is not as as bad as what you had to start with.

[DirtFlipper]

Post by Richiep

Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool. To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same? Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it. Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

Thanks for the info guys....Todd, that's an amazing transformation...I thought my game was in bad shape, but from your pictures, it looks like mine is not as as bad as what you had to start with.

Disassemble and clean is very helpful on the units, like the 100K:
Loading Image...

Time consuming, yes, but going through the whole game detail pays off in how it will play (and keep playing). There can be lots of hidden worn and 'about to fail' parts uncovered this way.

And it's fun...

[Todd Newman]

Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool. To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same? Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it. Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

Thanks for the info guys....Todd, that's an amazing transformation...I thought my game was in bad shape, but from your pictures, it looks like mine is not as  as bad as what you had to start with.

Disassemble and clean is very helpful on the units, like the 100K:http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn236/PinBeer/Hi%20Diver%20Resto/2...
Time consuming, yes, but going through the whole game detail pays off in how it will play (and keep playing).  There can be lots of hidden worn and 'about to fail' parts uncovered this way.
And it's fun...

+1

Lots of hidden gremlins.

There is no way to know if a coil stop is on it's last legs, except to
look at it.

[Richiep]

Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool. To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same? Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it. Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

Todd, what is that black box over the middle fuse on the mech board with a white button on it...mine just has a fuse there.

[Todd Newman]

Post by Richiep

Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool. To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same? Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it. Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

Todd, what is that black box over the middle fuse on the mech board with a white button on it...mine just has a fuse there.

That is just a circuit breaker. I must have been diagnosing a short
and forgot to pull it out. A fuse is correct.

[Richiep]

Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool. To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same? Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it. Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

Received the schematic yesterday..looks like there's three 10 amp fuses, a 5 amp and a 1/2 amp slow blo. One of you guys mentioned that the transformer fuse was a 5 amp slow blo....the schematic just shows it as a 5 amp, with no mention of a slow blow......I assume that means it's a normal fast blo, right??

[DirtFlipper]

Post by Richiep

Guys, finally starting to dig into my latest project, a 1958 Gottlieb Roto Pool. To date, this is my oldest game/project. Up to now, all my games have been mid 60's to early 70's pins and was just wondering if there's any significant difference in the design of these older games from the 50's as compared to the games from the 60's and 70's, or are they pretty much the same? Also, anyone know what the fuse values are for this game. Getting ready to place an order with PBR and will likely buy a schematic, but just wanted to get the right fuses in the game before I turn it on for ther first time to evaluate it. Right now the main fuse near the transformer is a 20 amp and the three other fuses in the front of the game on the mech panel are a 15, 20 and 15...seem high to me. Thanks.

Received the schematic yesterday..looks like there's three 10 amp fuses, a 5 amp and a 1/2 amp slow blo. One of you guys mentioned that the transformer fuse was a 5 amp slow blo....the schematic just shows it as a 5 amp, with no mention of a slow blow......I assume that means it's a normal fast blo, right??

That's what I get for going by memory - it's 5 amp (I checked a picture of a Criss Cross board, and the ink stamp says 5 AMP). Good catch!