Classic Playfield Reproductions - Plastics on PETG - Are you Absolutely Sure

[Classic Playfield Reproductions]

To the RGP gang,

I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.

I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made posts to
ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.

My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our acrylic
stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step backwards -
regardless of any preconceived notions. The hammer doesn't lie. Nothing
was staged. I even re-did some more videos where the pieces were matched
because folks blamed the holes/shape of the PETG piece used previously. Now
after those new videos were posted and I announced them on here, the
anti-acrylic crowd has fallen silent.

VIDEOS PAGE: http://www.classicplayfields.com/petg-acrylic.html

I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we should
be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there, let's discuss
it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic is not only standing
up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many many times better.

Sure, PETG can literally be rolled into a scroll and released flat again
without snapping. Wonderful. But how does that relate to a plastics set
sitting in a pinball machine? What about an edge hit ? It can easily
break. Isn't that important to everybody?

Sure, acrylic can stress crack at a screw hole if it gets squeezed by a
screw too hard. Or if you try to fold it in two it will snap. But it can
take 25 direct slams of a hammer on its edge and survive.

Ask yourself which material in the videos you would have chosen your repro
plastics to be made on *if I hadn't identified what kind of plastic each
was*

So I guess I'm looking for that last assurance, we're switching to PETG by
the latest opinions of the masses. *Is everybody absolutely sure* Anyone
want to speak up now or forever hold your peace. I don't want to go through
another raking and accusations of making "weak brittle plastics" after we
make Paragon...on PETG....which seems to be more impact brittle than
acrylic!

Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed on
material. :)

--
KEVIN WAYTE
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

[JBuffington]

On Aug 12, 3:18 am, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
To the RGP gang,
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made posts to
ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.
My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our acrylic
stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step backwards -
regardless of any preconceived notions. The hammer doesn't lie. Nothing
was staged. I even re-did some more videos where the pieces were matched
because folks blamed the holes/shape of the PETG piece used previously. Now
after those new videos were posted and I announced them on here, the
anti-acrylic crowd has fallen silent.
VIDEOS PAGE: http://www.classicplayfields.com/petg-acrylic.html
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we should
be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there, let's discuss
it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic is not only standing
up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many many times better.
Sure, PETG can literally be rolled into a scroll and released flat again
without snapping. Wonderful. But how does that relate to a plastics set
sitting in a pinball machine? What about an edge hit ? It can easily
break. Isn't that important to everybody?
Sure, acrylic can stress crack at a screw hole if it gets squeezed by a
screw too hard. Or if you try to fold it in two it will snap. But it can
take 25 direct slams of a hammer on its edge and survive.
Ask yourself which material in the videos you would have chosen your repro
plastics to be made on *if I hadn't identified what kind of plastic each
was*
So I guess I'm looking for that last assurance, we're switching to PETG by
the latest opinions of the masses. *Is everybody absolutely sure* Anyone
want to speak up now or forever hold your peace. I don't want to go through
another raking and accusations of making "weak brittle plastics" after we
make Paragon...on PETG....which seems to be more impact brittle than
acrylic!
Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed on
material. :)
--
KEVIN WAYTE
Classic Playfield Reproductionshttp://www.classicplayfields.com

I couldn't care less, Just keep them coming!

There will always be "plastic protectors", and I will keep buying them
all!

[KarlZona]

I agree with JBuffington, please do the tests equally, make the call
yourself, and move on to cranking out sets so we can save as many
machines as possible. If you try and wait for RGP to agree on
something your production will come to a grinding screeching halt with
a big dispute...

Just keep them comming, well said Buff.

You'll thank me later, Karl.
Pinball Restore Pix: http://karlzona.smugmug.com/Hobbies/351815
Support NO KILL Animal Shelters, SPAY/NEUTER!!!!

Post by JBuffington
I couldn't care less, Just keep them coming!
There will always be "plastic protectors", and I will keep buying them
all!- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[martin]

First, a disclosure. Pinbits makes PETG guards for pinball plastics.
So, with that on the table, some facts, and some opinions.

1) Vivak is PETG.
2) Polycarbonate (Lexan) laser cuts precisely, but browns at the
edges.
3) In materials under stress, holes make a big difference. They
concentrate large forces in small areas, which starts a crack. In
acrylic, those cracks propagate more easily than in PETG (trivia: I
used to work in the stress engineering department of an aerospace
company).
4) PETG costs less than acrylic (not by much), but is more expensive
to process with a laser.
5) Acrylic requires very careful handling and no overtightening. Keep
it flat.

Now, some opinions based on my observations and informal testing.

1) Pinball plastics break rarely. It takes a freak shot from the ball.
But we see the evidence all the time.
2) I expect that the hammer test will be quite different if performed
on the flipper end of a slingshot, where the hole is in the path of
the forces.
3) As acrylic gets thicker, it gets stronger. As PETG gets thicker, it
seems to get more likely to break rather than flex.
4) Both PETG and acrylic should have something where high-energy ball
strikes are possible.
5) The faster speed of ball travel on, say, System 11, will cause a
lot more damage. Earlier machines have relatively slow ball speeds,
which won't ever break a plastic. Broken plastics on EMs are more
about treatment than ball strikes.
6) Clear plastics are mostly OK in acrylic, as they rarely take high-
energy ball strikes. But clears with holes near the edge have to be
PETG.

And yes, acrylic just looks and lasts better, other than the ball
strike issues. And if it does break, the fracture is undistorted so it
can be glued back together.

[John Schlarb]

Post by martin
5) Acrylic requires very careful handling and no overtightening. Keep
it flat.

Sometimes plastics MUST be bent to fit into the game. The long yellow
plastic between the ramps on Black Knight is a good example. I installed the
CPR plastics for BK, and they have done great. Weren't these PETG?

John

[martin]

Post by John Schlarb

Post by martin
5) Acrylic requires very careful handling and no overtightening. Keep
it flat.

Sometimes plastics MUST be bent to fit into the game. The long yellow
plastic between the ramps on Black Knight is a good example. I installed the
CPR plastics for BK, and they have done great. Weren't these PETG?
John

John, acrylic will take a typical pinball plastic curve without
trouble. Where it goes wrong is with flexing near to holes, as can
happen during assembly.

[twilightzonepinball]

On Aug 12, 4:18 am, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
To the RGP gang,
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made posts to
ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.
My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our acrylic
stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step backwards -
regardless of any preconceived notions. The hammer doesn't lie. Nothing
was staged. I even re-did some more videos where the pieces were matched
because folks blamed the holes/shape of the PETG piece used previously. Now
after those new videos were posted and I announced them on here, the
anti-acrylic crowd has fallen silent.
VIDEOS PAGE: http://www.classicplayfields.com/petg-acrylic.html
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we should
be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there, let's discuss
it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic is not only standing
up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many many times better.
Sure, PETG can literally be rolled into a scroll and released flat again
without snapping. Wonderful. But how does that relate to a plastics set
sitting in a pinball machine? What about an edge hit ? It can easily
break. Isn't that important to everybody?
Sure, acrylic can stress crack at a screw hole if it gets squeezed by a
screw too hard. Or if you try to fold it in two it will snap. But it can
take 25 direct slams of a hammer on its edge and survive.
Ask yourself which material in the videos you would have chosen your repro
plastics to be made on *if I hadn't identified what kind of plastic each
was*
So I guess I'm looking for that last assurance, we're switching to PETG by
the latest opinions of the masses. *Is everybody absolutely sure* Anyone
want to speak up now or forever hold your peace. I don't want to go through
another raking and accusations of making "weak brittle plastics" after we
make Paragon...on PETG....which seems to be more impact brittle than
acrylic!
Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed on
material. :)
--
KEVIN WAYTE
Classic Playfield Reproductionshttp://www.classicplayfields.com

Why not Lexan?

-Tom

[KarlZona]

Why not have Scotty whip up some transparent aluminum?

Post by twilightzonepinball
Why not Lexan?

[unh_mubrat]

acrylic, make what we need, not what we ask! Your testing speaks for
itself.

On Aug 12, 4:18 am, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
To the RGP gang,
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made posts to
ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.
My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our acrylic
stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step backwards -
regardless of any preconceived notions. The hammer doesn't lie. Nothing
was staged. I even re-did some more videos where the pieces were matched
because folks blamed the holes/shape of the PETG piece used previously. Now
after those new videos were posted and I announced them on here, the
anti-acrylic crowd has fallen silent.
VIDEOS PAGE: http://www.classicplayfields.com/petg-acrylic.html
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we should
be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there, let's discuss
it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic is not only standing
up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many many times better.
Sure, PETG can literally be rolled into a scroll and released flat again
without snapping. Wonderful. But how does that relate to a plastics set
sitting in a pinball machine? What about an edge hit ? It can easily
break. Isn't that important to everybody?
Sure, acrylic can stress crack at a screw hole if it gets squeezed by a
screw too hard. Or if you try to fold it in two it will snap. But it can
take 25 direct slams of a hammer on its edge and survive.
Ask yourself which material in the videos you would have chosen your repro
plastics to be made on *if I hadn't identified what kind of plastic each
was*
So I guess I'm looking for that last assurance, we're switching to PETG by
the latest opinions of the masses. *Is everybody absolutely sure* Anyone
want to speak up now or forever hold your peace. I don't want to go through
another raking and accusations of making "weak brittle plastics" after we
make Paragon...on PETG....which seems to be more impact brittle than
acrylic!
Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed on
material. :)
--
KEVIN WAYTE
Classic Playfield Reproductionshttp://www.classicplayfields.com

[Bob]

Here are my 2cents
I have not seen the videos. i don't have the band width now to down
load them.

I hear you saying your tests show Acrylic to have a better impact
strength than PETG. These results are exactly the opposite of my
experience.

I am in the display business, we use both. I used to be in the
architectural model making business. We used acrylic (Cast Acrlite GP)
for 75% of the model.

I am curious what acrylic you are using. There do exist some decent
impact modified acryllics on the market. Vivak is the trade name that
comes to mind.
Are you using an extruded or cast acrylic? i have always found the
added cost of the cast acrylic was a fair trade-off for it's better
machinability. I also found it laser cut better than the extruded
sheet, Generally i would think acrylic would lose in an impact test
against PETG

I have always found PETG to have an excellent impact resistance. I
have made a bunch of folded literature pockets that can take some
decent shopping cart impact. I would never try that with acrylic.
Although one of the drawbacks of PETG is it has a bluish cast to it.

There are some nice clear Polycarbonates (Lexan) but they don't
laser(40W) cut worth a sh&t.

Was that 3cents? Hope i didn't further confuse things.

Bob

[heckheck]

On Aug 12, 4:18 am, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
To the RGP gang,
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our acrylic
stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step backwards -

First off, a plastic needs a degree of impact resistance, but up to
and not beyond the amount of pounding the ball will give it in a
game. A 10 ounce hammer swung at top force will test which material
is strongest to edge impact, but not tell you the whole story in which
plastic material is the "best" suited for pinball -- read on.

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
after those new videos were posted and I announced them on here, the
anti-acrylic crowd has fallen silent.

Also first off, I suggest you send an e-mail to all of your customers
and not rely on who "may" see this post on RGP. If you want to do
market research, reach _your_ market, not just whoever happens to see
this post. Summer is busy, and people may or may not see it. A post
lasts for at most (with replies) two or three days around here, so
that is just a small window for potential and existing customers.

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we should
be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there, let's discuss
it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic is not only standing
up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many many times better.

On edge impact alone. You've already pointed out that acrylic has NO
compressibility, where as PETG does. Read on for why I think this is
important.

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
Sure, PETG can literally be rolled into a scroll and released flat again
without snapping. Wonderful. But how does that relate to a plastics set
sitting in a pinball machine? What about an edge hit ? It can easily
break. Isn't that important to everybody?
Sure, acrylic can stress crack at a screw hole if it gets squeezed by a
screw too hard. Or if you try to fold it in two it will snap. But it can
take 25 direct slams of a hammer on its edge and survive.

My reservations wouldn't be about impacts once the plastic is
installed. Rather, it _would_ be about snugging down screws on
plastics. This isn't something you can easily avoid when installing
plastics, no matter how careful you are, or how lightly you attempt to
tighten. It's less of an isssue on an old Bally, which uses the white
post top rubbers that you don't tighten, but even these machines have
some acorn nuts here and there. On modern machines, with sling
plastics for example, there is always some deflection involved to get
the screw tightened to the point where the locknut will work. It's
worse when the plastic is thicker (or when using a lexan washer),
since this shortens the length of thread available to get the nut
tightend on. Even when using special jam nuts as available from
pinrestore.com, which are thin lock nuts where it takes less screw
threads until the threads bite into the nylon in the lock nut, you
still usually need to tighten to the point where the plastic starts to
flex. This hasn't been a problem in my experience with the old WMS
plastics, which accept some degree of surface deflection.

So the best material isn't just the one you can hammer on it's edge,
it's the one you can install and snug without causing stress cracks,
or breakage. Read someotherguy's Pinbot plastic install review from a
day or so ago, or the people who installed the Banzai run plastics.
They _did_ snap plastics during installation.

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
Ask yourself which material in the videos you would have chosen your repro
plastics to be made on *if I hadn't identified what kind of plastic each
was*

I still vote against acrylic. I don't think it is suited for pinball
plastics. Not enough give, can crack in installation. Ability to
deflect somewhat IS an important property!

I still vote in favor of PETG, even though it doesn't take as much
edge punishment. It takes a bunch, and the hammer test isn't
scientific enough to know if pinball will generate the same forces.

I don't know the properties of Lexan well, but is there even the
possibility that the "best" material has not yet been tried? Are you
sure that all PETG is created equal? Are there even stronger versions
available?

Jim Heck (aka h_h)

[c***@provide.net]

I don't have a hammer installed in any of my
pinball machines! Your hammer test is not
'real world' test in any way, shape or form.

If i break the plastics upon screwing them down,
before even the first ball is played, what does that
tell you?

No pinball maker has used acrylics for playfield
plastics? Why? Well why do you think? acrylic
is cheaper than PETG. Do you guys really think
you're smarter than a companies that have been
making playfield plastics since 1947?

The reasons you want to use acrylic seemingly
has nothing to do with durability (or lack of it).
it's that you can't cut other materials as well.
So please don't make us suffer thru this
because you can't get your manufacturing
processes figured out for PETG.

On Aug 12, 4:18 am, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
To the RGP gang,
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made posts to
ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.
My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our acrylic
stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step backwards -
regardless of any preconceived notions. The hammer doesn't lie. Nothing
was staged. I even re-did some more videos where the pieces were matched
because folks blamed the holes/shape of the PETG piece used previously. Now
after those new videos were posted and I announced them on here, the
anti-acrylic crowd has fallen silent.
VIDEOS PAGE: http://www.classicplayfields.com/petg-acrylic.html
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we should
be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there, let's discuss
it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic is not only standing
up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many many times better.
Sure, PETG can literally be rolled into a scroll and released flat again
without snapping. Wonderful. But how does that relate to a plastics set
sitting in a pinball machine? What about an edge hit ? It can easily
break. Isn't that important to everybody?
Sure, acrylic can stress crack at a screw hole if it gets squeezed by a
screw too hard. Or if you try to fold it in two it will snap. But it can
take 25 direct slams of a hammer on its edge and survive.
Ask yourself which material in the videos you would have chosen your repro
plastics to be made on *if I hadn't identified what kind of plastic each
was*
So I guess I'm looking for that last assurance, we're switching to PETG by
the latest opinions of the masses. *Is everybody absolutely sure* Anyone
want to speak up now or forever hold your peace. I don't want to go through
another raking and accusations of making "weak brittle plastics" after we
make Paragon...on PETG....which seems to be more impact brittle than
acrylic!
Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed on
material. :)
--
KEVIN WAYTE
Classic Playfield Reproductionshttp://www.classicplayfields.com

[MIKE PAYNE]

Post by c***@provide.net
I don't have a hammer installed in any of my
pinball machines! Your hammer test is not
'real world' test in any way, shape or form.
If i break the plastics upon screwing them down,
before even the first ball is played, what does that
tell you?
No pinball maker has used acrylics for playfield
plastics? Why? Well why do you think? acrylic
is cheaper than PETG. Do you guys really think
you're smarter than a companies that have been
making playfield plastics since 1947?
The reasons you want to use acrylic seemingly
has nothing to do with durability (or lack of it).
it's that you can't cut other materials as well.
So please don't make us suffer thru this
because you can't get your manufacturing
processes figured out for PETG.
On Aug 12, 4:18 am, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
To the RGP gang,
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made posts to
ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.
My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our acrylic
stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step backwards -
regardless of any preconceived notions. The hammer doesn't lie. Nothing
was staged. I even re-did some more videos where the pieces were matched
because folks blamed the holes/shape of the PETG piece used previously. Now
after those new videos were posted and I announced them on here, the
anti-acrylic crowd has fallen silent.
VIDEOS PAGE: http://www.classicplayfields.com/petg-acrylic.html
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we should
be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there, let's discuss
it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic is not only standing
up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many many times better.
Sure, PETG can literally be rolled into a scroll and released flat again
without snapping. Wonderful. But how does that relate to a plastics set
sitting in a pinball machine? What about an edge hit ? It can easily
break. Isn't that important to everybody?
Sure, acrylic can stress crack at a screw hole if it gets squeezed by a
screw too hard. Or if you try to fold it in two it will snap. But it can
take 25 direct slams of a hammer on its edge and survive.
Ask yourself which material in the videos you would have chosen your repro
plastics to be made on *if I hadn't identified what kind of plastic each
was*
So I guess I'm looking for that last assurance, we're switching to PETG by
the latest opinions of the masses. *Is everybody absolutely sure* Anyone
want to speak up now or forever hold your peace. I don't want to go through
another raking and accusations of making "weak brittle plastics" after we
make Paragon...on PETG....which seems to be more impact brittle than
acrylic!
Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed on
material. :)
--
KEVIN WAYTE
Classic Playfield Reproductionshttp://www.classicplayfields.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Was thinking the same thing. Why didnt Williams/Bally etc use acrylic?
They'd used something that would hold up, I vote for PETG. Although I
dont need any plastic sets...And seriously doubt Im gonna buy any.

[Fred Kemper]

LOL! :D

[Joseph A. 'Tony' Dziedzic]

You can beat this horse for the next twenty years and it will NOT change one
simple fact: acrylic cracks around mounting holes WAY too easily. Have you
tried installing a ball guide plastic on a classic Bally machine that uses the
metal standoffs? Have you tried rivetting a metal bracket or a light dome to
a piece of acrylic using both "real" rivet presses and the Hurky tools? In
either case it will be a crapshoot as to whether the material will survive as
the compressive force cannot be precisely controlled, and acrylic WILL crack
where PETG would not.

Do YOU as a manufacturer want to open yourself up to all the bad feelings when
someone is extremely careful and STILL breaks an acrylic piece?

Joseph "Tony" Dziedzic

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
To the RGP gang,
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause.

[Eric A.]

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we should
be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there, let's discuss
it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic is not only standing
up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many many times better.

Ok, I'll bite. I bought a set of Banzai plastics.

If I understand correctly the acrylic plastics were made thicker than
the originals to hold up better than the regular plastic thickness.
With the thicker plastics there isn't enough room on the shafts of the
screws to get a normal nut secure. I do not want to have to go out and
buy new fasteners.

I don't like the idea of protectors and would like to leave my
plastics on the game as they were intended. Also, when I install the
protectors there is less of a bite into the wood and therefore run the
risk of problems down the road with the pf screws loosing up.

I also wonder why lexan can't be used too. I'm sorry if this was
covered. We use lexan at the plant and you gotta see the abuse lexan
goes through. They put it in benders and everything. That stuff looks
indestructible.

Also, if you take identical plastics same width and same thickness
which one of those will hold up better? I think it was already agreed
upon that the "test" wasn't done right and you were going to reshoot
some footage.

Honestly I don't care what stuff you use I just want the plastics that
hold up the best with the original thickness so they secure easily.


Eric A.
313-268-0541

[Eric A.]

Oh yeah, I also want to stress I do not want "burned" plastics either.
Hey you asked! :-)


Eric A.
313-268-0541

[a***@gmail.com]

I suggest you rerun your BR plastic set in PETG; you've got the demand
for it still and people will buy another set. Then, some of us will
have each type installed, and six months down the road you can get ask
for real reports. The fact that acrylic plastics are breaking during
shipping and installation suggests to me there are problems with that
material - but I have no idea whether the extra problems are worth it
once the plastics are installed.

It also seems like you'd have a market for plastic protectors - you've
got all the equipment there to make them and once you've done the work
to make plastics, those protectors should be easy to design.

[miracleman]

Post by Joseph A. 'Tony' Dziedzic
Do YOU as a manufacturer want to open yourself up to all the bad feelings when
someone is extremely careful and STILL breaks an acrylic piece?

That is the most important sentence in any post about this issue so
far.

As far as Kevin's post... (you asked for opinions!)
When I saw the bubble wrap envelopes (instead of a box) sitting on my
doorstep from Canada, I felt my stomach drop out, and when I saw the
broken pieces inside I only felt worse.
I know you have resolved the shipping issue with boxes now, and that
makes me feel better about ordering more parts from you in the future.
And yes, as much as you want to pound on pieces all day with a hammer,
the truth is I flexed one of the already broken pieces and it 'broke
like a corn chip'.
My problem with your tests is you are using a hammer with a flat
surface on a flat edge. I'm curious what would happen (because I don't
know) if you used a rounded ball peen hammer, which would, like a
steel pinball, focus the force of impact down to a smaller area.

I keep forgetting to order a Xenon plastics set from you, and will
eventually, but am glad to discover it's CNC cut PETG. I will not
knowingly buy acrylic repro pieces from anyone anymore. When I replace
a plastic I don't want to strip the entire pf down and replace the
posts because I had to add protectors under the plastics. I didn't
replace all of my BR plastics because the originals looked fine, were
unbroken, and were in an area where they won't BE broken.

I think the ability to tighten down plastics is important and a valid
issue, whatever material used should not crack from that ,or rivets,
or any other process used on plastics to secure them, or secure items
TO them.

I vote lexan cut on a CNC machine, but that's just me speaking from
experience.
When I had repro plastics for my Comet 'dunk/dummy', Stingray
'seashell', Whitewater 'Insanity falls' and Demolition Man UL flipper
plastics made, I told my plexi-guy that made them they were prone to
breakage and what should we use? "Lexan." he said, "It's more
expensive but won't break in your pinball machine." I told him 'Do
it." cuz I only wanted to do it once and I wanted to do it right. I
believe I had him use lexan a little thicker than the original plastic
just to be safe! It's still thinner than what it would be if I had to
add 'plastic protectors' (well made, Martin!), which although thin, I
still had a couple spots on my BR where I could not attach a nut back
onto. Sure the edges of my lexan pieces aren't 'shiny', being cut on a
cnc, but that doesn't bother me at all.
The last above paragraph just applies to me, btw, my opinion only.

I am glad Kevin and CPR go to all the effort they do to make these
plastics and pf's, and I have a Fathom pf still waiting to be swapped.
But I will feel a bit screwed if the Banzai Run plastic set 're-run'
advertised on your site is made of PETG.
When Vic Ireland had problems with his Shadow plastics set a while
back (ink issues, not plastic, he used PETG), he replaced all of them
with no extra charge or offer of buying a second 'discounted' set.
He ate the costs of re-running them, but I seriously doubt you guys
could do that, as once you committed to acrylic you ran BR and Pinbot,
and replacing both those sets for anyone that asked might put you out
of business, and even I don't want that. If there is 'no problem' with
acrylic as you've said, and the BR re-run is PETG, could I trade back
the second backup BR plastic set I bought for a PETG set?

You have been pretty much professional beyond expected about this
issue and towards me and I thank you for that.
For your own sake I want everything to be as perfect as possible
before product goes out the door to avoid all the stuff we're all
dealing with now.
However this issue is resolved I'm sure I'll buy CPR's products in the
future.

[Fred Kemper]

That would be my vote as well.

I'd have no use for a set of shiny cracked plastics...

[a***@gmail.com]

On Aug 12, 4:18 am, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made posts to
ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.

Respectfully, this does not seem to be true:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/254fa2843b9e2ea8/

[TheKorn]

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made
posts to ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.
My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our
acrylic stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step
backwards - regardless of any preconceived notions. The hammer
doesn't lie. Nothing was staged. I even re-did some more videos
where the pieces were matched because folks blamed the holes/shape of
the PETG piece used previously. Now after those new videos were
posted and I announced them on here, the anti-acrylic crowd has fallen
silent.
VIDEOS PAGE: http://www.classicplayfields.com/petg-acrylic.html
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we
should be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there,
let's discuss it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic
is not only standing up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many
many times better.
Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed
on material. :)

Here are a few random thoughts. I have no horse in this race, but you're
asking for thoughts, so here they are.

* Manufacturers who manufacture both PETG and acrylic claim that the
PETG handles more abuse. I found the following page somewhat
illuminating:

http://www.lumicor.com/_technical/index.php

Open the top twistie, and you'll see the impact resistance.
Specifically, that one company makes two different types of acrylic with
two vastly different levels of impact resistance. Interestingly, it
looks like their top shelf stuff has fairly close impact resistance to
PETG, though still lower. (also interesting:
http://www.tspinc.com/other.html )


* There are (still) problems with your experimental method, which is why
I think you're finding people still unconvinced. Add in that your
results run contrary to both previous experience and manufacturers'
guidance, and something doesn't smell right.


* More to the point, you're not an impartial observer. You're the
producer of the goods, and also doing the testing. I'm not saying that
you did anyting underhanded, but these days it doesn't look legit if the
producer of the product does the testing and gets the expected result.


If you'd like, I can design and run tests that would fairly accurately
simulate in-game conditions. Those tests would probably lay the issue to
bed pretty definitively. (see http://www.webwidevideo.com/p1072 ,
http://www.thekorn.net/gold/index.php , and
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=981&parent=175 )
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?

http://www.webwidevideo.com/



09-F9-11-02-9D-74-E3-5B-D8-41-56-C5-63-56-88-C0
45-5F-E1-04-22-CA-29-C4-93-3F-95-05-2B-79-2A-B2

[Mike Purcell]

OK Guys;

I don't know how to make this more clear. I have stated this for weeks
now. We again use PETG exclusively.

Kevin has just been trying to show the acrylic is not as delicate as
people had claimed. I think he clearly showed that.

We initailly used PETG on all plastics but switched when I got the
laser. We used acrylic on BR and Pinbot cause all the other guys
cutting with laser told us we had to and initial experiments I did
showed that to be apparently true. However, after lots of
experimentaion and some not so cheap mods I can cut PETG just fine.
Acrylic looks a bit better in its wrapper but once installed I can't
tell the difference. There will be no more acrylic parts.... none.

CPR uses PETG. Nuff said

Mike Purcell
www.classicplayfields.com

[Chris Evans]

Post by Mike Purcell
OK Guys;
I don't know how to make this more clear. I have stated this for weeks
now. We again use PETG exclusively.
[...]
CPR uses PETG. Nuff said

YOU ASKED THE F-ING QUESTION.

Or, more specifically, Kevin did. Go back and check the first post in this
thread.

Looks like CPR needs better internal communication.

[miracleman]

Post by Mike Purcell
I don't know how to make this more clear. I have stated this for weeks
now. We again use PETG exclusively.

Maybe you should let Kevin know that! :)

Post by Mike Purcell
Kevin has just been trying to show the acrylic is not as delicate as
people had claimed.

If the plastic cracks when a screw is moderately tightened down, I'd
call that delicate!

[someotherguy]

Post by Mike Purcell
OK Guys;
I don't know how to make this more clear. I have stated this for weeks
now. We again use PETG exclusively.
Kevin has just been trying to show the acrylic is not as delicate as
people had claimed. I think he clearly showed that.
We initailly used PETG on all plastics but switched when I got the
laser. We used acrylic on BR and Pinbot cause all the other guys
cutting with laser told us we had to and initial experiments I did
showed that to be apparently true. However, after lots of
experimentaion and some not so cheap mods I can cut PETG just fine.
Acrylic looks a bit better in its wrapper but once installed I can't
tell the difference. There will be no more acrylic parts.... none.
CPR uses PETG. Nuff said
Mike Purcell
www.classicplayfields.com

I'm glad you're using PETG -again- ... what I'm unhappy about is that the Pinbot
set I have is acrylic, and you guys don't seem interested at all in re-doing
these in PETG. I broke one during installation while being VERY careful due to
reading about the Banzai Run breakages.

I already implied in a very polite email to you (Kevin read and responded to it,
actually) that it would be a very nice gesture to re-run these in the
appropriate material. It may be a money-losing situatuion but would go a long
way towards ensuring good will with your customers and their likelihood to
support your future efforts.

Does it sway you in any way whatsoever that I will now offer this (and a few
others have implied the same in this thread) - I'm so interested in having a
stronger set of Pinbot plastics I'm willing to "meet you half way" - I don't
expect you to lose your ass by replacing the plastics for free. I'd be willing
to pay a little extra and we can all write it off as a learning experience. Come
up with a reasonable compromise and replace these plastics, and we'll all be
better off in the long run.

I play my games and believe me I'm going to be pissed off if/when these plastics
start breaking during play; I'm already very unconvinced of their strength since
I broke one so easily during install. I'm not a ham-fisted goon wielding a
screwdriver as if it were a weapon. With the potential for breakage firmly
burned into my consciousness, I still managed to break one with great ease.

Richard

[arcaderehab]

<snip>

Post by someotherguy
I'm glad you're using PETG -again- ... what I'm unhappy about is that the Pinbot
set I have is acrylic, and you guys don't seem interested at all in re-doing
these in PETG. I broke one during installation while being VERY careful due to
reading about the Banzai Run breakages.
I already implied in a very polite email to you (Kevin read and responded to it,
actually) that it would be a very nice gesture to re-run these in the
appropriate material. It may be a money-losing situatuion but would go a long
way towards ensuring good will with your customers and their likelihood to
support your future efforts.

</snip>

Well said.

It would be nice to run these again using the proper thickness and the
proper material - if you do decide to, please make the drop target
plastic properly as a one piece item.

[Funky Pinaholic]

Post by TheKorn

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made
posts to ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.
My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our
acrylic stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step
backwards - regardless of any preconceived notions. The hammer
doesn't lie. Nothing was staged. I even re-did some more videos
where the pieces were matched because folks blamed the holes/shape of
the PETG piece used previously. Now after those new videos were
posted and I announced them on here, the anti-acrylic crowd has fallen
silent.
VIDEOS PAGE: http://www.classicplayfields.com/petg-acrylic.html
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we
should be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there,
let's discuss it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic
is not only standing up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many
many times better.
Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed
on material. :)

Here are a few random thoughts. I have no horse in this race, but you're
asking for thoughts, so here they are.
* Manufacturers who manufacture both PETG and acrylic claim that the
PETG handles more abuse. I found the following page somewhat
http://www.lumicor.com/_technical/index.php
Open the top twistie, and you'll see the impact resistance.
Specifically, that one company makes two different types of acrylic with
two vastly different levels of impact resistance. Interestingly, it
looks like their top shelf stuff has fairly close impact resistance to
PETG, though still lower. (also interesting: http://www.tspinc.com/other.html)
* There are (still) problems with your experimental method, which is why
I think you're finding people still unconvinced. Add in that your
results run contrary to both previous experience and manufacturers'
guidance, and something doesn't smell right.
* More to the point, you're not an impartial observer. You're the
producer of the goods, and also doing the testing. I'm not saying that
you did anyting underhanded, but these days it doesn't look legit if the
producer of the product does the testing and gets the expected result.
If you'd like, I can design and run tests that would fairly accurately
simulate in-game conditions. Those tests would probably lay the issue to
bed pretty definitively. (seehttp://www.webwidevideo.com/p1072,http://www.thekorn.net/gold/index.php, andhttp://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=981&parent=175)
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
http://www.webwidevideo.com/
09-F9-11-02-9D-74-E3-5B-D8-41-56-C5-63-56-88-C0
45-5F-E1-04-22-CA-29-C4-93-3F-95-05-2B-79-2A-B2- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Piggybacking on some of Korn's comments and adding my own...

If you had used PETG in the past and shipped them the same way that
some of the recent acrylic plastics were shipped, were there similar
numbers of people mentioning that plastics were broken in shipping? I
don't recall a rash of people mentioning this.

Similarly I don't recall people mentioning that when they simply
installed the PETG plastics having them immediately break. I would be
very upset if this happened to me.

Edge strength is important but isn't necessarily where the ball hits
every time.. Like when bands below a plastic force a pinball up to hit
a plastic. The pinball isn't hitting directly on an edge. Airballs
also cause the ball to impact off the edge.

I'm not sure what clear CD-R cases are made of but If most CD-R cases
are made out of a similar acrylic I can tell you firsthand that they
easily break when they fall on an edge or when pressure is applied to
the side.

I'd like to see Korn's testing at work to show the differences.
Something like this:

Rig a test where two plastics of the same shapes and thicknesses are
mounted on a piece of plywood using the most common fasteners and find
the biggest coil in the pinball industry to fire a real pinball at
one, some hitting the very edge, some hitting the rubber below it and
traveling up, some airballs that hit the top. Have this fire a hundred
times.

As Korn alluded to, acrylic being superior seems to fly in the face of
materials makers claims. I don't find any manufacturer that claims
their acrylic should be used over PETG (or other materials) because it
can take more abuse. They usually tout the clarity of the acrylic.

How well does acrylic age?

Why switch to acrylic in the first place if people weren't clamoring
for the change?

[Chris Evans]

Post by Funky Pinaholic
I'd like to see Korn's testing at work to show the differences.

So would I.

Post by Funky Pinaholic
Why switch to acrylic in the first place if people weren't clamoring
for the change?

To be fair, they did answer this. It's because acrylic plays nice with
their laser cutter whereas PETG doesn't.

[Wil]

On Aug 12, 4:18 am, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed on
material. :)
--
KEVIN WAYTE
Classic Playfield Reproductionshttp://www.classicplayfields.com

Why not do runs of both, and let the consumer decide? If you guys are
really behind acrylic,
back it up with a guarantee, and let the petg followers take their
chances. I'm sure the first
plastics set where you offer both materials would show you where
people stand. Hell, you can do preorders for the petg ones, or vice
versus.

Just keep making stuff :)

Wil

ps - on a side note, I ordered a set of the BK plastics a while ago,
and the shooter lane one is slightly scratched up - any chance of
getting a replacement for this one piece? I can email you my order
info.

[BWAGNER5150]

I'd definitely buy a set of Pinbot plastics if they were PETG :-)

Ben

On Aug 12, 1:18 am, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
To the RGP gang,
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made posts to
ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.
My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our acrylic
stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step backwards -
regardless of any preconceived notions. The hammer doesn't lie. Nothing
was staged. I even re-did some more videos where the pieces were matched
because folks blamed the holes/shape of the PETG piece used previously. Now
after those new videos were posted and I announced them on here, the
anti-acrylic crowd has fallen silent.
VIDEOS PAGE: http://www.classicplayfields.com/petg-acrylic.html
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we should
be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there, let's discuss
it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic is not only standing
up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many many times better.
Sure, PETG can literally be rolled into a scroll and released flat again
without snapping. Wonderful. But how does that relate to a plastics set
sitting in a pinball machine? What about an edge hit ? It can easily
break. Isn't that important to everybody?
Sure, acrylic can stress crack at a screw hole if it gets squeezed by a
screw too hard. Or if you try to fold it in two it will snap. But it can
take 25 direct slams of a hammer on its edge and survive.
Ask yourself which material in the videos you would have chosen your repro
plastics to be made on *if I hadn't identified what kind of plastic each
was*
So I guess I'm looking for that last assurance, we're switching to PETG by
the latest opinions of the masses. *Is everybody absolutely sure* Anyone
want to speak up now or forever hold your peace. I don't want to go through
another raking and accusations of making "weak brittle plastics" after we
make Paragon...on PETG....which seems to be more impact brittle than
acrylic!
Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed on
material. :)
--
KEVIN WAYTE
Classic Playfield Reproductionshttp://www.classicplayfields.com

[Chris Evans]

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 08:18:27 GMT, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.

Try doing a *real* test.

Take two _exact_ pieces (same thickness, shape, holes). Mount
them as though they were slingshots using real slingshot
mounts to a piece of wood.

*Now* hit the edges with a ball-peen hammer to simulate
ball strikes. *Then* tell us which one lasts better.

My personal feeling on the matter is that it doesn't matter
how much better you think acrylic lasts if the pieces chip
and shatter when you're trying to install them...

[Gunstar Hero]

I don't care, as long as it works, and CPR is willing to stand behind
their product. Maybe you just use both, depending on the application.
To answer the question tho, if you HAD to use just one tho, may as
well be PETG, because some games (cftbl, WCS94) have plastics that
"bend" over PF features, scoops, ect. But at the end of the day, I say
use what keeps the parts comin'!!

On Aug 12, 1:18 am, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
To the RGP gang,
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made posts to
ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.
My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our acrylic
stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step backwards -
regardless of any preconceived notions. The hammer doesn't lie. Nothing
was staged. I even re-did some more videos where the pieces were matched
because folks blamed the holes/shape of the PETG piece used previously. Now
after those new videos were posted and I announced them on here, the
anti-acrylic crowd has fallen silent.
VIDEOS PAGE: http://www.classicplayfields.com/petg-acrylic.html
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we should
be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there, let's discuss
it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic is not only standing
up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many many times better.
Sure, PETG can literally be rolled into a scroll and released flat again
without snapping. Wonderful. But how does that relate to a plastics set
sitting in a pinball machine? What about an edge hit ? It can easily
break. Isn't that important to everybody?
Sure, acrylic can stress crack at a screw hole if it gets squeezed by a
screw too hard. Or if you try to fold it in two it will snap. But it can
take 25 direct slams of a hammer on its edge and survive.
Ask yourself which material in the videos you would have chosen your repro
plastics to be made on *if I hadn't identified what kind of plastic each
was*
So I guess I'm looking for that last assurance, we're switching to PETG by
the latest opinions of the masses. *Is everybody absolutely sure* Anyone
want to speak up now or forever hold your peace. I don't want to go through
another raking and accusations of making "weak brittle plastics" after we
make Paragon...on PETG....which seems to be more impact brittle than
acrylic!
Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed on
material. :)
--
KEVIN WAYTE
Classic Playfield Reproductionshttp://www.classicplayfields.com

[PT]

Thanks Kevin! I think PETG is the way to go.

I posted this in it's own thread too:

******

I've been playing with videos lately and decided that a plastic test
would be a good project.

I didn't like the hammer test because the plastic was not secured and
was taking a straight-on blow. Plastics in pinball machines break off
at the corner because the tip is being flexed upward or downward. A
straight-on-edge collision means the plastic has to shatter rather
than snap off. In my test I positioned the plastic low, so the ball
would be hit below center. This will make the ball jump upward and
flex the plastic in the process.

I tested three plastics:
1) acrylic protectors from Jeff M.
2) lexan protectors from Pinball Life
3) an original WMS plastic from an AFM

The Banzai Run plastics from CPR are a little thicker than the acrylic
protectors that I tested, so they should be stronger. BTW; they
really look great!

Many thanks to CPR for pumping out so many great parts. You guys have
really done a great job of making parts that are much needed.

John

[OldTimer]

Look at the link below and watch a REAL test that uses a
pinball against these materials.
Acrylic really DOES break "like a potato chip" ... I feel bad for
the people that have these on their machines as it won't be
long before they also get the same results.

Kudos to PT for the effort here... an unbiased one.

No "hammer" against CPR as I'm glad to see the
parts available :-)

Post by PT
Thanks Kevin! I think PETG is the way to go.
******
I've been playing with videos lately and decided that a plastic test
would be a good project.
I didn't like the hammer test because the plastic was not secured and
was taking a straight-on blow. Plastics in pinball machines break off
at the corner because the tip is being flexed upward or downward. A
straight-on-edge collision means the plastic has to shatter rather
than snap off. In my test I positioned the plastic low, so the ball
would be hit below center. This will make the ball jump upward and
flex the plastic in the process.
1) acrylic protectors from Jeff M.
2) lexan protectors from Pinball Life
3) an original WMS plastic from an AFM
The Banzai Run plastics from CPR are a little thicker than the acrylic
protectors that I tested, so they should be stronger. BTW; they
really look great!
http://youtu.be/mXU51g5T_EE
Many thanks to CPR for pumping out so many great parts. You guys have
really done a great job of making parts that are much needed.
John

[PT]

Post by OldTimer
Acrylic really DOES break "like a potato chip"

I just want to point out once again that the plastics from CPR are
thicker than the acrylic protectors that I tested. Pinbits makes
plastics PETG protectors for Banzai Run already. The combination
looks great and I am not worried about breakage. I also swapped out
posts and added washers here and there so all the plastics sit flat
and don't flex when tightened down. This is easier said than done on
BR. PETG is definitely better for plastics if it needs to be flexed
to install (IMO).


John

Post by OldTimer
Look at the link below and watch a REAL test that uses a
pinball against these materials.
Acrylic really DOES break "like a potato chip" ... I feel bad for
the people that have these on their machines as it won't be
long before they also get the same results.
Kudos to PT for the effort here... an unbiased one.
No "hammer" against CPR as I'm glad to see the
parts available :-)

[OldTimer]

Understood. However when a thicker acrylic piece gets hit
and does not break it can try to flex and then you'll get the
cracks around the supporting screws. The PETG protectors
will hopefully do thier job here protecting the acrylic.

Also thicker plastics will not be appropriate for a lot of games
as you don't have enough screw left over to fasten the plastic
on with confidence.

In any case this was interesting and nice that it all seemed to
work out for the best.

Post by PT

Post by OldTimer
Acrylic really DOES break "like a potato chip"

I just want to point out once again that the plastics from CPR are
thicker than the acrylic protectors that I tested. Pinbits makes
plastics PETG protectors for Banzai Run already. The combination
looks great and I am not worried about breakage. I also swapped out
posts and added washers here and there so all the plastics sit flat
and don't flex when tightened down. This is easier said than done on
BR. PETG is definitely better for plastics if it needs to be flexed
to install (IMO).
John

Post by OldTimer
Look at the link below and watch a REAL test that uses a
pinball against these materials.
Acrylic really DOES break "like a potato chip" ... I feel bad for
the people that have these on their machines as it won't be
long before they also get the same results.
Kudos to PT for the effort here... an unbiased one.
No "hammer" against CPR as I'm glad to see the
parts available :-)

[c***@provide.net]

THANK YOU JOHN.
Finally a test that is accurate and depicts
what happens in a pinball machine!

The hammer test CPR was doing, well,
was completely bogus! Again, i don't
have any hammers in my games. And the
plastics are secured, not flopping around
in the breeze.

http://youtu.be/mXU51g5T_EE

Amazing test John. You did a very accurate test.

Suggestion to CPR: Stop wasting time making
stupid useless videos and learn how to cut
PETG with a laser (or some other means).
Also stop trying to convince everyone that acrylic
is Ok. I swear you guys are like the Bush
government, in denial about so many things
gone wrong.

Post by PT
Thanks Kevin! I think PETG is the way to go.
******
I've been playing with videos lately and decided that a plastic test
would be a good project.
I didn't like the hammer test because the plastic was not secured and
was taking a straight-on blow. Plastics in pinball machines break off
at the corner because the tip is being flexed upward or downward. A
straight-on-edge collision means the plastic has to shatter rather
than snap off. In my test I positioned the plastic low, so the ball
would be hit below center. This will make the ball jump upward and
flex the plastic in the process.
1) acrylic protectors from Jeff M.
2) lexan protectors from Pinball Life
3) an original WMS plastic from an AFM
The Banzai Run plastics from CPR are a little thicker than the acrylic
protectors that I tested, so they should be stronger. BTW; they
really look great!
http://youtu.be/mXU51g5T_EE
Many thanks to CPR for pumping out so many great parts. You guys have
really done a great job of making parts that are much needed.
John

[TheKorn]

Post by PT
1) acrylic protectors from Jeff M.
2) lexan protectors from Pinball Life
3) an original WMS plastic from an AFM
The Banzai Run plastics from CPR are a little thicker than the acrylic
protectors that I tested, so they should be stronger. BTW; they
really look great!
http://youtu.be/mXU51g5T_EE
Many thanks to CPR for pumping out so many great parts. You guys have
really done a great job of making parts that are much needed.

Nice video, and good testing method. Good job!

About the only question I have is... Lexan doesn't appear to be the same
thing as PETG. Is that a correct or incorrect statement?
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?

http://www.webwidevideo.com/



09-F9-11-02-9D-74-E3-5B-D8-41-56-C5-63-56-88-C0
45-5F-E1-04-22-CA-29-C4-93-3F-95-05-2B-79-2A-B2

[John Schlarb]

I just got my Whirlwind plastics (acrylic), which are beautifully done.
However, one of the plastics snapped at the screw hole as I was putting it
on. My screws weren't well-aligned, so shame on me for trying to force-fit
the plastic. But I was a bit surprised at how easily it broke.

I think thickness matters as much as or maybe even more than material, but
that's just my uneducated opinion.

John

[John Schlarb]

Sorry, my terminology was off below. Where I said "screws" I meant threaded
playfield posts.

BTW I've ordered a set of protectors from PinBits, and will wait until they
arrive before installing any more plastics. Whirlwind almost seems designed
to destroy plastics: three of the plastics overhang stationary targets, so
that it seems they would take a constant beating from airballs off the
targets.

John

Post by John Schlarb
I just got my Whirlwind plastics (acrylic), which are beautifully done.
However, one of the plastics snapped at the screw hole as I was putting it
on. My screws weren't well-aligned, so shame on me for trying to force-fit
the plastic. But I was a bit surprised at how easily it broke.
I think thickness matters as much as or maybe even more than material, but
that's just my uneducated opinion.
John

[s***@excite.com]

Post by John Schlarb
Sorry, my terminology was off below. Where I said "screws" I meant threaded
playfield posts.
BTW I've ordered a set of protectors from PinBits, and will wait until they
arrive before installing any more plastics. Whirlwind almost seems designed
to destroy plastics: three of the plastics overhang stationary targets, so
that it seems they would take a constant beating from airballs off the
targets.

Hmmmm, maybe the targets should be reinforced then?

At any rate, not sure where I got the plastic washers from and what they
are made out of, but they suck. Either they crack on install, or break
with a ball hit. Granted, better than chipping the corner of the
plastic, but a pain nonetheless. I'm going back to metal.....

-scott CARGPB#29

[TheKorn]

Post by s***@excite.com
At any rate, not sure where I got the plastic washers from and what
they are made out of, but they suck. Either they crack on install, or
break with a ball hit. Granted, better than chipping the corner of
the plastic, but a pain nonetheless. I'm going back to metal.....

Some of us never stopped putting metal on our games! :)

(Yeah, I know they block light. Boo hoo.)
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?

http://www.webwidevideo.com/



09-F9-11-02-9D-74-E3-5B-D8-41-56-C5-63-56-88-C0
45-5F-E1-04-22-CA-29-C4-93-3F-95-05-2B-79-2A-B2

[martin]

Post by TheKorn

Post by s***@excite.com
At any rate, not sure where I got the plastic washers from and what
they are made out of, but they suck. Either they crack on install, or
break with a ball hit. Granted, better than chipping the corner of
the plastic, but a pain nonetheless. I'm going back to metal.....

Some of us never stopped putting metal on our games! :)
(Yeah, I know they block light. Boo hoo.)
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
http://www.webwidevideo.com/
09-F9-11-02-9D-74-E3-5B-D8-41-56-C5-63-56-88-C0
45-5F-E1-04-22-CA-29-C4-93-3F-95-05-2B-79-2A-B2

Polycarbonate (Lexan, Merlon, Makrolon) is not the same thing as PETG
(Vivak, Spectar etc).

Polycarbonate has to be bit or water cut, so it will usually have a
fairly rough edge. Of all things, I have some CNC washers cut from
acrylic. That's an odd result, as the extra material cost of
polycarbonate is insignificant.

Metal dings the ball.

[TheKorn]

Post by martin
Polycarbonate (Lexan, Merlon, Makrolon) is not the same thing as PETG
(Vivak, Spectar etc).
Polycarbonate has to be bit or water cut, so it will usually have a
fairly rough edge. Of all things, I have some CNC washers cut from
acrylic. That's an odd result, as the extra material cost of
polycarbonate is insignificant.
Metal dings the ball.

Meh, I'd rather have a dinged up ball than a possibly dinged up plastic;
it's a lot easier replacing the balls than the plastics!
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?

http://www.webwidevideo.com/



09-F9-11-02-9D-74-E3-5B-D8-41-56-C5-63-56-88-C0
45-5F-E1-04-22-CA-29-C4-93-3F-95-05-2B-79-2A-B2

[Ron Strom]

Post by martin

Post by TheKorn

Post by s***@excite.com
At any rate, not sure where I got the plastic washers from and what
they are made out of, but they suck. Either they crack on install, or
break with a ball hit. Granted, better than chipping the corner of
the plastic, but a pain nonetheless. I'm going back to metal.....

Some of us never stopped putting metal on our games! :)
(Yeah, I know they block light. Boo hoo.)
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
http://www.webwidevideo.com/
09-F9-11-02-9D-74-E3-5B-D8-41-56-C5-63-56-88-C0
45-5F-E1-04-22-CA-29-C4-93-3F-95-05-2B-79-2A-B2

Polycarbonate (Lexan, Merlon, Makrolon) is not the same thing as PETG
(Vivak, Spectar etc).
Polycarbonate has to be bit or water cut, so it will usually have a
fairly rough edge. Of all things, I have some CNC washers cut from
acrylic. That's an odd result, as the extra material cost of
polycarbonate is insignificant.
Metal dings the ball.

Transparent aluminum, that's the ticket laddie ;-)

Seriously, if your going to use metal why not make aluminum? Will not
ding the ball and is serious strong.

[TomDrum7]

On Aug 12, 4:18 am, "Classic Playfield Reproductions"

Post by Classic Playfield Reproductions
To the RGP gang,
I need opinion contributions follow-posted to this post.
I've gotta say that the hammer-tests on the "PETG vs. Acrylic" concept
honestly have me unconvinced of any 'vast benefits' of using PETG
exclusively from now on. Mike and I are willing to accept what the
customers want, and the latest seems to be PETG, by mass response and
applause. Over a month ago the opinion was acrylic when Mike made posts to
ask. Nobody in the 'PETG camp' spoke up back then.
My worry is that PETG doesn't have the impact resistance that our acrylic
stock had...and that switching back to PETG is possibly a step backwards -
regardless of any preconceived notions. The hammer doesn't lie. Nothing
was staged. I even re-did some more videos where the pieces were matched
because folks blamed the holes/shape of the PETG piece used previously. Now
after those new videos were posted and I announced them on here, the
anti-acrylic crowd has fallen silent.
VIDEOS PAGE: http://www.classicplayfields.com/petg-acrylic.html
I'd like to have a whole bunch of ppl in their words explain why we should
be using one over the other. Now that the videos are there, let's discuss
it. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions why the acrylic is not only standing
up to the hammer better than the PETG...but many many times better.
Sure, PETG can literally be rolled into a scroll and released flat again
without snapping. Wonderful. But how does that relate to a plastics set
sitting in a pinball machine? What about an edge hit ? It can easily
break. Isn't that important to everybody?
Sure, acrylic can stress crack at a screw hole if it gets squeezed by a
screw too hard. Or if you try to fold it in two it will snap. But it can
take 25 direct slams of a hammer on its edge and survive.
Ask yourself which material in the videos you would have chosen your repro
plastics to be made on *if I hadn't identified what kind of plastic each
was*
So I guess I'm looking for that last assurance, we're switching to PETG by
the latest opinions of the masses. *Is everybody absolutely sure* Anyone
want to speak up now or forever hold your peace. I don't want to go through
another raking and accusations of making "weak brittle plastics" after we
make Paragon...on PETG....which seems to be more impact brittle than
acrylic!
Let the masses speak! I want it documented here that we all agreed on
material. :)
--
KEVIN WAYTE
Classic Playfield Reproductionshttp://www.classicplayfields.com

I'm not an engineer, but as a pinball person, I'd rather see more
playfields and backglasses than plastic sets.... Xenon, Paragon, Mata
Hari. I have a Paragon, and bought a 2nd used playfield, both sets of
plastics have survived 28 years with minimal/no damage unlike the
typical Bally playfield from this era. What good are new plastics over
a worn playfield?