Discussion:
Early SS: Williams vs. Bally
(too old to reply)
zilla
2005-12-21 04:53:05 UTC
Permalink
What are people's opinions about early solid state machines (late 70's,
early 80's). Overall, who made better machines? Williams or Bally?
What about Gottlieb?

One more question: were Williams machines priced lower? Many seem to
have fewer drop targets than Ballys.

Eric

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KJ_Gameroom
2005-12-21 05:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Early solid state williams machines were OK, but the system itself
kinda sucks with age. The 5101, battery corrosion problems, and the 40
pin interconnector plague this system. Haven't had to repair many early
bally's though, they seem pretty solid.
From my understanding the Gottlieb system 80 was terrible.
-Kurt
K and J Gameroom Services
Orlando, FL
What are people's opinions about early solid state machines (late 70's,
early 80's). Overall, who made better machines? Williams or Bally?
What about Gottlieb?
One more question: were Williams machines priced lower? Many seem to
have fewer drop targets than Ballys.
Eric
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Sent via Gamer Newsgroups
http://www.gamernewsgroups.com
llabrevlis
2005-12-21 06:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Depends on what you look for I guess, I personally don't have much use
for either the Bally or Williams early SS games, until the great
improvements in sound came. After that you have several classics on
both sides, Firepower,Black Knight, Jungle Lord for WMS, Space
Invaders, Centaur, and Xenon among others for Bally. Gottlieb had
their moments too, with Black Hole, Mars GOW, and or course HH.
Interms of fixability, the Bally's are the easiest (and probably the
most dependable), next the WMS and finally GTB (but once modifications
are done they are pretty solid)

If you are a beginner, Bally would probably be the way to go to get
your feet wet, better diagnostics, and more robust than the other 2

DG
Post by KJ_Gameroom
Early solid state williams machines were OK, but the system itself
kinda sucks with age. The 5101, battery corrosion problems, and the 40
pin interconnector plague this system. Haven't had to repair many early
bally's though, they seem pretty solid.
From my understanding the Gottlieb system 80 was terrible.
-Kurt
K and J Gameroom Services
Orlando, FL
What are people's opinions about early solid state machines (late 70's,
early 80's). Overall, who made better machines? Williams or Bally?
What about Gottlieb?
One more question: were Williams machines priced lower? Many seem to
have fewer drop targets than Ballys.
Eric
--
Sent via Gamer Newsgroups
http://www.gamernewsgroups.com
mbeverly
2005-12-21 14:30:05 UTC
Permalink
All early SS will have board connector problems with age but with Wms
if the CPU to driver connector gets flaky it can crash the system and
burn up coils and/or display panels ($). I've never seen an early Bly
SS destroy a display panel. Bly connector problems can drive you nuts
but usually don't cause things to burn up.

I bought a Gtb Countdown that had a problem where ALL the controlled
solenoids pulled in when the game was turned on. Didn't blow a fuse
although I did not leave it on to see what would happen. Turns out
there's a -5V (or -12V, don't remember) regulator on the PS board, and
if that regulator goes bad, due to the circuit design, it will make all
the coils pull in. I replaced the $1.50 regulator and that fixed it.

I'm no expert but to me that's a bad, bad, bad design.
Rockola
2005-12-21 15:34:44 UTC
Permalink
Bally (-17, -35's) were the most dependable of the early solid state
games (in my book). Game play or fun quotient was near a draw with
early Gottlieb sys 1 and 80 games. Early Williams (sys 3 through 6)
come in last dependability wise with poor drop target mechs, the shakey
fourty pin connector between the mpu and driver, coupled with battery
corrosion problem shared by all of these makers made for a bum time.
One good thing about the Williams games is the AA batteries were easy
to replace so less of the mpu boards got destroyed. They had a few
good games, and with persistance they can be made reliable too. Sterns
(100's) of that era made the least desireable games (IMO, they are
dependable but boring). The Stern 200 board set had a lot of better
games.

--zTim
Action Pinball
2005-12-21 15:48:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by llabrevlis
Depends on what you look for I guess, I personally don't have much use
for either the Bally or Williams early SS games, until the great
improvements in sound came. After that you have several classics on
both sides, Firepower,Black Knight, Jungle Lord for WMS, Space
Invaders, Centaur, and Xenon among others for Bally.
<snip>

I agree- I think the turning point for sound with Wms solid-state games was
Flash- the version that introduced the background sound that increased in
frequency/pitch as game play progressed. Not all Flash games had it- I have
2 that do, and 4 that do not... Different software version- appears to be
an earlier release rather than a later release (L-2 version doesn't have
it).

Games from this point on were much more fun to play. To me, sound is half
the game. I do a lot of on-site repairs of pins and always run across some
where the owner has the sound turned all the way down to "make the game
quieter". I've never understood that- sound is half the experience of the
game, and plus, after you turn the volume down past a certain point, the
solenoids (flippers, bumpers) become louder than the audio anyway- you can't
turn those down.... And they call this "quieter"....

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
MD
2005-12-21 23:06:22 UTC
Permalink
I agree, Ray. I have my pins set up near my drums, and I have Flash
turned up quite loudly. Being so close to the drums, it's amazing how
much harmonic reverberance I get via the drums. The lightning sounds
and the "beedeebeedee" from the lit drop targets is body buzzing.
Imagine having it hooked up to a big ol subwoofer?...



Hmmmm....



Mike
Post by Action Pinball
Post by llabrevlis
Depends on what you look for I guess, I personally don't have much use
for either the Bally or Williams early SS games, until the great
improvements in sound came. After that you have several classics on
both sides, Firepower,Black Knight, Jungle Lord for WMS, Space
Invaders, Centaur, and Xenon among others for Bally.
<snip>
I agree- I think the turning point for sound with Wms solid-state games was
Flash- the version that introduced the background sound that increased in
frequency/pitch as game play progressed. Not all Flash games had it- I have
2 that do, and 4 that do not... Different software version- appears to be
an earlier release rather than a later release (L-2 version doesn't have
it).
Games from this point on were much more fun to play. To me, sound is half
the game. I do a lot of on-site repairs of pins and always run across some
where the owner has the sound turned all the way down to "make the game
quieter". I've never understood that- sound is half the experience of the
game, and plus, after you turn the volume down past a certain point, the
solenoids (flippers, bumpers) become louder than the audio anyway- you can't
turn those down.... And they call this "quieter"....
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
s***@excite.com
2005-12-21 15:25:11 UTC
Permalink
from a technical standpoint, I'd give the nod to Ballys - easy to
diagnose and fix most problems.

from a playing standpoint, bally was blowing everyone away until WMS
came out with Flash. Slight edge to WMS there.
From a playing standpoint GTB's are right up there when Black hole and
HH came out, in terms of innovation. WMS still had the fastest playing
machines though.

Overalll I have to give the nod to MPU200 Sterns though. Those are
players' machines, and they had the best drop targets (for
playability.... not longevity though) I'm biased though on sterns.....
I have more WMS sys6/7 than any other era so for your Q on the big 3,
WMS
Action Pinball
2005-12-21 15:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by zilla
What are people's opinions about early solid state machines (late 70's,
early 80's). Overall, who made better machines? Williams or Bally?
What about Gottlieb?
Sort of like asking what your favorite kind of car is- Ford, Chevrolet,
Dodge. Most of it comes down to personal preference.

Personally, my favorite are the Williams games from this era. I just like
the way they feel, play, look- the colors, lighting effects, sound effects,
and speech. The lighting effects in attract mode on many of the games
toward the late 1970's and into the 1980's always seemed more "energetic" to
me- they were definitely more attractive in that sense than their
counterparts (at least to me). I like all these aspects about them over any
of the other brands from the same era.

I like the Bally and Stern games as a close 2nd. Both were very similar.
I'm not a huge fan of any of them, but I think they're good. My personal
collection has about 10 Williams games and I have 2 Ballys that I'm
considering keeping but maybe not long term- Eight Ball and Xenon.

I don't like any of the Gottlieb games at all- never liked the feel any of
them had, and when growing up playing pinball in the late 1970's and 1980's,
I always felt like the flippers on the System 1 games were spread too far
apart and you always had more of tendency to lose the ball down the middle.
Your quarter went pretty quick on these games. I think the worst experience
I had playing (or trying to play) a System 1 game on location was a Gottlieb
Hulk. The game was set up with so little angle on the playfield that it
played like cold molasses. That was the most boring, uneventful experience
I ever had playing a pin on location, and I don't know why but it really
still has stuck in my mind after all these years. I can stil picture the
theatre it was in where I played (even though that is all gone now). The
2nd worst was a Close Encounters at our local 7-11 store. Boring boring
boring- and the ball got through the flippers quick- we ended up spending
most of our time/money on the Meteor they put in next to it.

As for the better machine, well, that depends on what aspect of them we are
talking about- and again, a lot of it will be personal preference and
opinion. From my personal experience in the hobby and business over all the
years of working on these games, I'd have to say that the Bally and Stern
games from this era are the most reliable games- IF (and that's an "IF" with
capital letters), they are completely gone through and overhauled properly
with electronics upgraded/modified, etc., as required (most of this stuff is
required due to old age of the games nowadays and wasn't required back in
the day). But we've restored and sold scores of these games and they have
been the most reliable of any we've sold to our customers.

Williams I would have to say are a close second place. Even though I enjoy
them more in many aspects- over the Bally and Stern games- I have to say
that the Williams games are a bit more prone to problems just due to the
design of the electronics and some weak spots they have. But, again, if
fully and properly overhauled they can be very reliable in the home
gameroom.

Gottlieb games from this era I would have to say are the absolute worst.
I've had nothing but horrible experiences with most of these that I have
serviced/repaired over the years- so much so that we as a business stopped
selling or servicing any Gottlieb games a few years back. They never had a
real robust electronics system and used a lot of off-the-wall types of
components that can be hard to find or replace, and as such, they can be
very problematic and unreliable and difficult to repair and even keep
working. Granted, I have run across a few that seem to hold up pretty well
but the majority of them have been very unpleasant to deal with so we've got
away from them entirely in recent years.

The electro-mechanical Gottlieb games were built very well- they are sort of
the "tanks" or "battleships" of the mechanical pinball era, but they used a
very different and unique operating design- much different than other
manufacturers- which makes them unique in methods you must use and
techniques for troubleshooting and repair- they can be difficult, but if
you're experienced with them, they're probably not so bad. Personally I
find Williams, Bally, Chicago Coin, and Stern games from the mechanical era
much more straightforward and easier to troubleshoot and repair- they all
have very similar designs. But the Gottlieb em games, although much
different in design, were really built well overall. I did always hate the
flatblade screwdriver screws they always used- even all the way up through
their solid state games- always made it hard to get the screws in and out
when working on stuff. Never understood why they didn't use the
easier-to-use phillips head screws or hex head screws like later Bally,
Williams, and Stern pins did- they are so much more pleasant to work on in
this respect than the Gottlieb games. Ever tried to balance a flatblade
screw on the screwdriver while trying to get it up behind a drop target bank
and into the screw hole? Not fun.
Post by zilla
One more question: were Williams machines priced lower? Many seem to
have fewer drop targets than Ballys.
Doubtful that they were priced any differently than other manufacturers-
there was a lot of competition between manufacturers back in that time so
prices were probably very competitive.

I haven't ever noticed that Williams had fewer drop targets than Bally
games- after all, many Williams games were known for a lot of drop targets-
Flash (8), Blackout (6), Black Knight (12), Jungle Lord (11), Gorgar (6),
Firepower (proto) (6), Phoenix (10), Pharaoh (12), Hot Tip (6), Scorpion (9
I think). A lot of Bally games only had 4 or 5- Evel Kneivel (4), Dolly
Parton (4 I think?), Playboy (5), Harlem Globetrotters (4), Paragon (7),
Xenon (4), Space Invaders (1), Mata Hari (8), Power Play (8).

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
qfrost
2005-12-21 17:35:43 UTC
Permalink
I'd also add that Bally machines tend to have better condition
Backglasses, followed by Stern, Gottlieb and WAY distant fourth,
Williams. Williams BGs must have started flaking as they left the
factory, the way I've seen them. All machines seem fairly equal in the
amount of PF wear and how well they've held up (once you compare
popularity and number of plays).

Finally, artwork for Bally tended to be the best quality, again
followed by Gottlieb and Stern.
Williams artwork seems to have been done by high-school dropouts, for
the most part (Flash always comes to mind).

(Of course I think some of the Williams games from that era were a
blast to play, I don't want to give the impression I don't enjoy
Williams).

- Q
l***@hotmail.com
2005-12-21 18:03:25 UTC
Permalink
I don't know, I think Black knight has some seriously cool art, people
I have over mention it more then others as having pretty neat art.

I am partial to Williams Pins and Vids. The sounds simply kick ass the
play is fast and once the games are running good problems are few and
far between.
~eric
s***@farrar.com
2005-12-22 20:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Here's a copy of a thread I posted April 30th, 2003. Subject = "
Battle of the Classic SS Games ( 1978-1982) - WMS vs. BLY vs. GTB".
Sorry, it doesn't include anything about Stern games but people added
onto my post. Enjoy.
-------------------------------------------------

I've decided to look into the age-old debate of who made the best
classic Solid State pinball games. Below is a list of games by the BIG
3 manufacturers by year. I intentionally left off Stern because I
didn't think any of their games were any better than the worst of the
Big 3 for any given year. I might have missed one or two games along
the way, but nothing major.


I then rated the best game and best set of games released by a
manufacturer for each year, along with a summary. Every year at least
one manufacturer was giving us some Classic games. My conclusion runs
contrary to what most people post on RGP. Initially I had thought
Bally had better Classic SS pins but after breaking down the games by
year & by manufacturer I now think Williams had the best run from 1978
to 1982.


1978
WMS - Contact, Disco Fever, Lucky Seven, Phoenix, Pokerino, World Cup

BLY - Eight Ball, Mata Hari, Evel Knievel, Lost World, Playboy, Power
Play, Strikes and Spares, 6MDM
GTB - Charlie's Angels, Close Encounters, Dragon, Joker Poker, Sinbad


1978 SUMMARY - Bally came with into this stage of pinball mania with
Guns-a-Blazen on their first batch of SS games. Bally gave players
had numerous good games to choose from. Gottlieb had a great game and
a good game while Williams was still learning. Overall this was an
exciting year to be a pin-head as the new technology was overwhelming.
1978 BEST GAME - Joker Poker
1978 BEST MANUFACTURER - Bally


1979
WMS - Flash, Gorgar, Laser Ball, Stellar Wars, Time Warp, Tri-Zone
BLY - Dolly Parton, Future Spa, Harlem Globe, Kiss, Nitro Grnd Shaker,
Paragon, Star Trek, Supersonic
GTB - Count Down, Genie, Incredible Hulk, Pinball Pool, Solar Ride,
Totem


1979 SUMMARY - Two great games by Williams and a batch of good games
by BLY & GTB made for another banner year. The arcades were already
full of good games from 1978 and things just got better. WMS was the
first to implement continuous background sound (Flash) and then raised
the level Big Time when it revolutionized the industry by adding
SPEECH to Gorgar.
1979 BEST GAME - Gorgar
1979 BEST MANUFACTURER - Williams


1980
WMS - Algar, Alien Poker, Black Knight, Blackout, Firepower, Scorpion

BLY - Hot Doggin, Rolling Stones, Silverball Mania, Skateball, Space
Invaders, Viking, Xenon
GTB - Ateroid Annie, Buck Rogers, Counterforce, James Bond, Panthera,
Roller Disco, Spider Man, Torch


1980 SUMMARY - If you like WMS games then you were in heaven during
1980. A string of 4 excellent games were released. The games
released by the other manufacturers just weren't up to the same level
as WMS. In 1980 WMS was single-handily responsible for introducing
Lane Change, 7-digit displays, Multi-ball and Multi-level play.
1980 BEST GAME - Firepower
1980 BEST MANUFACTURER - Williams


1981
WMS - Barracora, Hyperball, Jungle Lord, Pharaoh, Solar Fire
BLY - Centaur, EBD, Electra, Embryon, Fathom, Fireball II, Flash
Gordon, Medusa, Rapid Fire
GTB - Black Hole, Mars-God of War, Pink Panther, Volcano


1981 SUMMARY - Bally kicked ass during the year giving us some killer
games: Centaur, EBD, Fathom & Flash Gordon. WMS was stuck in
multi-level world while GTB came out with a decent multi-level game
(Black Hole).
1981 BEST GAME - Fathom
1981 BEST MANUFACTURER - Bally


1982
WMS - Cosmic Gunfight, Defender, Varkon, Warlock
BLY - BMX, Baby Pac-Man, Mr./Mrs. Pac-Man, Speakeasy, Spectrum,
Vector
GTB - Caveman, Devil's Dare, Haunted House, Punk, Rocky, Spirit,
Striker


1982 SUMMARY - Whoa is me, the good times are over. The beginning of

the end had started. Out of all of these games only one decent game
was released (Haunted House) and that didn't even have Speech.
1982 BEST GAME - Haunted House
1982 BEST MANUFACTURER - Gottlieb

These are my Personal Favorites and your opinion may be different -
if
so then add it to the thread.
frenchy
2005-12-22 21:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Black Knight's backglass turned OFF looks better than most glasses
turned ON.
s***@excite.com
2005-12-21 18:32:42 UTC
Permalink
I actually like the flash artwork - the blue looks very nice. I guess
it's just differing styles..... I love stern games but always thought
the art wasn't that good (space scenes are ok but anything with
people..... seems golden age comic booky.... not "sharp" if you know
what I mean)
qfrost
2005-12-21 19:14:42 UTC
Permalink
You actually like the drawing of the guy on the bg and pf? Compare
that to say, the bg of Strikes and Spares or Countdown. There's a big
difference in talent.

Not to say Williams didn't have some good art (Blackout), just on a
whole I always found the art less skillfully done.

- Q
s***@excite.com
2005-12-21 20:12:29 UTC
Permalink
no, don't care either way for the guy on the BG of flash, but I like
the blue tones of the "clouds". I love Kevin O'conner artwork and
gordon morrison artwork - too bad neither of those guys did the stern
backglasses!!

The PF art seems to match the game - yes it's kind of primative
(reminds me of nordic people/Thor).

Blackout is good too - better than Flash I would say. I think Alien
Poker is not a "great" BG, but TriZone is cool, Gorgar's cool....
s***@farrar.com
2005-12-22 20:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Wow, what a difference of opions we have on this board...

* I think Alien Poker Backglass (and PF artwork) is VERY cool

* While I have the TriZone BG for my collection, I don't have it hung
up as it's kind of "weird", in a retro-cool kind of way.

* Gorgar is AWESOME artwork (if you can get over the Devil aspect of
it)

* Black Knight is nothing but CLASSIC artwork

* Flash artwork looks like a grade schooler did it - I stayed away from
that game for a long time because of the artwork.

* Firepower - classic WILLIAMS space artwork (along with Stellar Wars &
Solar Fire). FP PF artwork is kind of bland as its either black or the
patchwork pattern of the planet.

* Blackout - wow, NONE of the color scheme makes any sense on the
Playfield...you got greens & reds & orange & yellow & blue and none of
it works out "perfectly". Also, too much black on the Playfield.
Artwork - that's not exactly what I'd refer to those astronauts as ;-)


* Pharaoh - now that's an unusual artwork package. The guy on the
backglass looks kind of goofey but I like everything else about it.

* Jungle Lord - once again, the guy's face looks "terrible" - grade
school artwork but other than that I like the package.

* Many other BAD artwork backglass artwork from WMS during that time:
Contact, Warlock, Lazer Ball, Disco Fever, Phoenix, Algar, Barracora
(now I know I've pissed off some people), Time Fantasy all come to
mind.

* Some cool artwork backglass by WMS during that time is Scorpion
(except for the brown in it), Defender (OK, so I'm a "homer" because I
like the game), HyperBall (ez now), Cosmic Gunfight, Laser Cue
(although somedays its kind of "gay" looking) and finally, Time Warp
(which has me on the fence)!

Later
s***@excite.com
2005-12-22 23:19:36 UTC
Permalink
I think the PF artwork on AP is good - the backglass is too busy, and
did not emphasize the poker/card aspect enough. It's too obviously
based on the star wars cantina scene with the goofy aliens. There
should be some big ass card suits or something on there.

I don't think blackouts PF is too good, the BG is fun though. TriZ's
PF is eh. I do like the colors and Marche BG..... JL, eh. Pharaoh is
a "no" for me, but I don't like that game either.

Time Warp is a bit busy, but I like blues in the BG art so it's "ok".
The triangle thing is cool with the guy in the center, but never really
looked at the rest of it.
ldnayman
2005-12-22 21:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@excite.com
no, don't care either way for the guy on the BG of flash, but I like
the blue tones of the "clouds". I love Kevin O'conner artwork and
gordon morrison artwork - too bad neither of those guys did the stern
backglasses!!
yeah I agree, the people on Flash look terrible but I've always really,
really liked the blues and the clouds. Great game anyway, I like flash
alot.
frenchy
2005-12-22 21:29:48 UTC
Permalink
<<<I intentionally left off Stern because I
didn't think any of their games were any better than the worst of the
Big 3 for any given year. >>

Stern had quite a few VERY good games in 80-82, belong right up there
with Bally's best, they are practically Bally's behind the backglass
too. Lightning, Catacomb, Split Second, Iron Maiden, Galaxy, Nine
Ball, Seawitch, Big Game, F2K, Orbiter 1, a few others. If there are
eras to leave Stern off a list of, THIS one is not one of them. But
Pink Panther and Dolly Parton and Rapid Fire are better 'worsts' then
these Sterns? -gag- -cough-

<<I might have missed one or two games along the way>>

No kidding?
Mark Teskey
2005-12-22 21:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Amen. Flight 2000 absolutely belongs in that list..

.. but I might be biased.. :)

-Mark.
Post by frenchy
<<<I intentionally left off Stern because I
didn't think any of their games were any better than the worst of the
Big 3 for any given year. >>
Stern had quite a few VERY good games in 80-82, belong right up there
with Bally's best, they are practically Bally's behind the backglass
too. Lightning, Catacomb, Split Second, Iron Maiden, Galaxy, Nine
Ball, Seawitch, Big Game, F2K, Orbiter 1, a few others. If there are
eras to leave Stern off a list of, THIS one is not one of them. But
Pink Panther and Dolly Parton and Rapid Fire are better 'worsts' then
these Sterns? -gag- -cough-
<<I might have missed one or two games along the way>>
No kidding?
frenchy
2005-12-30 17:16:46 UTC
Permalink
<<<Amen. Flight 2000 absolutely belongs in that list..
.. but I might be biased.. :) >>>

And I'm biased on my Lightning, this game has some absolute brilliance
in the game rules that is not obvious on first glance. Never fails to
make me blurt out obcenities playing it. The glass is touched up, the
pf is not exactly mint, the blue arrow inserts are still warped, the
cabinet scratched... but if my house caught on fire and I was outside,
it would be the only one I would put a wet towel over my head for and
break thru a window to drag out to the sidewalk! (oh ok I'd get my
dogs out first.)

Taxman
2005-12-21 18:25:07 UTC
Permalink
I like working on the Bally games. Beef up the bridge rectifiers on
the power supply, clip out the battery, change any troublesome light
sockets and your good for a few more decades. Maybe a TIP102
transistor will go bad but easy to trace and fix.

The big problem is the light sockets. Bally did not want to depend on
somone else's stock so they madde their own. The used two different
metals so they corrode and lose contact eventualy.

- Dave
s***@excite.com
2005-12-21 18:31:07 UTC
Permalink
even into the solidstate era those are bally's own? I know the EM era
had the crap ones but the newer ones seem better.
OldSchool
2005-12-21 18:57:57 UTC
Permalink
Overall? Bally wins, but not a blowout.

OldSchool
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