Tech: Williams Indiana Jones balls in play issue

[Rodney Minch]

I'm working on a Williams Indiana Jones that had a variety of problems
but I've got everything working 100%. The problem is that once in
great awhile, the game will think only 1 ball is in play when there
are actually two in play. One of them will drain and that turn will
end and it will start the next turn. For instance, if you were
playing a 1 player game and you were on ball 1, it would go to ball
2. If you were playing a multi-player game, it would go to the next
player, even tho 1 ball is still in play. I hope that makes sense.

Once all the balls are drained, the trough will kick out two balls at
the start of a turn. The only way to get it out of this cycle is to
power cycle the game or go into the game menu and then exit out, which
essentially resets the machine also.

Tonight it did this to me after playing about 20 games on it. After I
powered cycled the game, I couldn't get it to do it again after
playing about (8) 3 player games.

I've checked all the optos, especially the ones under the playfield
for the subway and they work fine. The optos in the idol work fine as
well (it passes the self test everytime) along with the opto at the
top of the idol.

I thought maybe the ball trought was having issues but it has the
Great Lakes Modular boards in it and appears to be working fine. I

The problem is so intermittent that it's very hard to replicate. I'm
not exactly sure what actions cause it to happen. If memory serves,
the problem seems to happen when the game is in a multi-ball mode but
I'm not 100% on that.

If it was a home machine this wouldn't be a big problem but the game
is on location and in tournaments.

Anyone have any ideas?

Rodney

[Lloyd Olson]

On IJ always check the front right switch on the path of adventure. Balls
hit it underneath and short wires/diode/switch lugs. That is a common cause
of extra balls being launched into play. LTG :)

Post by Rodney Minch
I'm working on a Williams Indiana Jones that had a variety of problems
but I've got everything working 100%. The problem is that once in
great awhile, the game will think only 1 ball is in play when there
are actually two in play. One of them will drain and that turn will
end and it will start the next turn. For instance, if you were
playing a 1 player game and you were on ball 1, it would go to ball
2. If you were playing a multi-player game, it would go to the next
player, even tho 1 ball is still in play. I hope that makes sense.
Once all the balls are drained, the trough will kick out two balls at
the start of a turn. The only way to get it out of this cycle is to
power cycle the game or go into the game menu and then exit out, which
essentially resets the machine also.
Tonight it did this to me after playing about 20 games on it. After I
powered cycled the game, I couldn't get it to do it again after
playing about (8) 3 player games.
I've checked all the optos, especially the ones under the playfield
for the subway and they work fine. The optos in the idol work fine as
well (it passes the self test everytime) along with the opto at the
top of the idol.
I thought maybe the ball trought was having issues but it has the
Great Lakes Modular boards in it and appears to be working fine. I
The problem is so intermittent that it's very hard to replicate. I'm
not exactly sure what actions cause it to happen. If memory serves,
the problem seems to happen when the game is in a multi-ball mode but
I'm not 100% on that.
If it was a home machine this wouldn't be a big problem but the game
is on location and in tournaments.
Anyone have any ideas?
Rodney

[Rodney Minch]

Post by Lloyd Olson
On IJ always check the front right switch on the path of adventure. Balls
hit it underneath and short wires/diode/switch lugs. That is a common cause
of extra balls being launched into play.  LTG :)

Lloyd, I did check that awhile back. I adjusted the switch lugs as
they were really close to each other. I looked at it again tonight
and it looks fine.

I wonder if I should just replace that switch and diode with new ones
to completely rule it out.

Rodney

[Lloyd Olson]

I'd replace it, if nothing else to start ruling things out. LTG :)

Post by Lloyd Olson
On IJ always check the front right switch on the path of adventure. Balls
hit it underneath and short wires/diode/switch lugs. That is a common cause
of extra balls being launched into play. LTG :)

Lloyd, I did check that awhile back. I adjusted the switch lugs as
they were really close to each other. I looked at it again tonight
and it looks fine.

I wonder if I should just replace that switch and diode with new ones
to completely rule it out.

Rodney

[AVP Pinball Division]

Post by Rodney Minch
I'm working on a Williams Indiana Jones that had a variety of problems
but I've got everything working 100%. The problem is that once in
great awhile, the game will think only 1 ball is in play when there
are actually two in play. One of them will drain and that turn will
end and it will start the next turn. For instance, if you were
playing a 1 player game and you were on ball 1, it would go to ball
2. If you were playing a multi-player game, it would go to the next
player, even tho 1 ball is still in play. I hope that makes sense.
Once all the balls are drained, the trough will kick out two balls at
the start of a turn. The only way to get it out of this cycle is to
power cycle the game or go into the game menu and then exit out, which
essentially resets the machine also.
Tonight it did this to me after playing about 20 games on it. After I
powered cycled the game, I couldn't get it to do it again after
playing about (8) 3 player games.
I've checked all the optos, especially the ones under the playfield
for the subway and they work fine. The optos in the idol work fine as
well (it passes the self test everytime) along with the opto at the
top of the idol.
I thought maybe the ball trought was having issues but it has the
Great Lakes Modular boards in it and appears to be working fine. I
The problem is so intermittent that it's very hard to replicate. I'm
not exactly sure what actions cause it to happen. If memory serves,
the problem seems to happen when the game is in a multi-ball mode but
I'm not 100% on that.
If it was a home machine this wouldn't be a big problem but the game
is on location and in tournaments.
Anyone have any ideas?
Rodney

Bad solder joint to the resistors and LEDs on the trough opto assembly
and/or a bad infrared LED(s) on the trough opto. Game thinks too many balls
are in the trough. It will kick ball #2 into play. When the first ball
drains it ends the turn even though the second ball is still out there.

[p***@yahoo.com]

Also take a look at the trough IDC connections as well. If they are opening intermittently the game will lose track of balls thinking they are in the trough.

Remove balls, go into switch test mode and and slightly wiggle the cables. If the trough switches set off, the connector needs to be replaced.

[psk445]

I would check the actual metal trough for divots or dings that could
cause a ball to get hung up. If you replaced both trough boards it's
unlikely that you still have any opto problems. If a ball was getting
physically hung up in the trough that would create the problem you are
describing.

Post by Rodney Minch
I'm working on a Williams Indiana Jones that had a variety of problems
but I've got everything working 100%.  The problem is that once in
great awhile, the game will think only 1 ball is in play when there
are actually two in play.  One of them will drain and that turn will
end and it will start the next turn.  For instance, if you were
playing a 1 player game and you were on ball 1, it would go to ball
2.  If you were playing a multi-player game, it would go to the next
player, even tho 1 ball is still in play.  I hope that makes sense.
Once all the balls are drained, the trough will kick out two balls at
the start of a turn.  The only way to get it out of this cycle is to
power cycle the game or go into the game menu and then exit out, which
essentially resets the machine also.
Tonight it did this to me after playing about 20 games on it.  After I
powered cycled the game, I couldn't get it to do it again after
playing about (8) 3 player games.
I've checked all the optos, especially the ones under the playfield
for the subway and they work fine.  The optos in the idol work fine as
well (it passes the self test everytime) along with the opto at the
top of the idol.
I thought maybe the ball trought was having issues but it has the
Great Lakes Modular boards in it and appears to be working fine.  I
The problem is so intermittent that it's very hard to replicate.  I'm
not exactly sure what actions cause it to happen.  If memory serves,
the problem seems to happen when the game is in a multi-ball mode but
I'm not 100% on that.
If it was a home machine this wouldn't be a big problem but the game
is on location and in tournaments.
Anyone have any ideas?
Rodney

[Rodney M]

Just wanted to give an update on this as I've finally figured out what the problem is. The big issue was that the idol release plastic would very randomly get stuck in the down position as it was catching on the plastic piece above it. When it was stuck down and the idol would have more than 1 ball in it and it would turn, one of the locked balls would fall out when it was not supposed to. Just the slightest vibration (like activate the flippers, etc) would usually cause it to become unstuck and go back in the up position. That extra ball on the play field would confuse the game and cause the problems I was experiencing.

I fixed the idol release so it could no longer get stuck and it's working great.

Rodney

[b***@gmail.com]

Post by Rodney M
Just wanted to give an update on this as I've finally figured out what the problem is. The big issue was that the idol release plastic would very randomly get stuck in the down position as it was catching on the plastic piece above it. When it was stuck down and the idol would have more than 1 ball in it and it would turn, one of the locked balls would fall out when it was not supposed to. Just the slightest vibration (like activate the flippers, etc) would usually cause it to become unstuck and go back in the up position. That extra ball on the play field would confuse the game and cause the problems I was experiencing.
I fixed the idol release so it could no longer get stuck and it's working great.

Hi, I have the exact same problem on my IJ, the idol release plastic gets stuck in the down-position. It does that super-often though, like 50% of the times. However as far as I can tell it's not the plastic part that gets stuck underneath the plastic trough, it's the actual solenoid core piston that somehow gets stuck inside the solenoid bore. It only happens when the solenoid itself pulls the piston down - it doesn't happen if I manually push it down into the soleniod. Really weird.

Gonna disassemble the piston and solenoid to see if there is something wrong with either part.

Just thought I'd write it here in case someone else has the same problem :)

[Dave]

Post by b***@gmail.com

Just wanted to give an update on this as I've finally figured out what the problem is. The big issue was that the idol release plastic would very randomly get stuck in the down position as it was catching on the plastic piece above it. When it was stuck down and the idol would have more than 1 ball in it and it would turn, one of the locked balls would fall out when it was not supposed to. Just the slightest vibration (like activate the flippers, etc) would usually cause it to become unstuck and go back in the up position. That extra ball on the play field would confuse the game and cause the problems I was experiencing.
I fixed the idol release so it could no longer get stuck and it's working great.

Hi, I have the exact same problem on my IJ, the idol release plastic gets stuck in the down-position. It does that super-often though, like 50% of the times. However as far as I can tell it's not the plastic part that gets stuck underneath the plastic trough, it's the actual solenoid core piston that somehow gets stuck inside the solenoid bore. It only happens when the solenoid itself pulls the piston down - it doesn't happen if I manually push it down into the soleniod. Really weird.
Gonna disassemble the piston and solenoid to see if there is something wrong with either part.
Just thought I'd write it here in case someone else has the same problem :)

Coming in late on this thread. Just curious if you ended up fixing this problem? I have a very intermittent problem similar to this so just curious how you went. My problem is so intermittent that it isn't really an issue at the moment as it only gets stuck in the down position very, very rarely. And weirdly, mainly when testing the idol rather than during game play. Maybe its the vibration during game play that is enough to keep it working?? I suspect like yours it's not the plastic part that gets stuck underneath the plastic trough, it's the actual solenoid core piston that somehow gets stuck inside the solenoid bore so just wondering how you went and what your fix ended up being? Apart from this idol works beatifically, and even more so since replacing both the motor and gear assembly with a brand new one a few months ago. Was good to also pull the entire idol mechanism out of the game so I could give it a good clean - including giving the optos a good clean - before reassembly.

Cheers, David.

[Bjorn Wesen]

Post by b***@gmail.com
Hi, I have the exact same problem on my IJ, the idol release plastic gets stuck in the down-position. It does that super-often though, like 50% of the times. However as far as I can tell it's not the plastic part that gets stuck underneath the plastic trough, it's the actual solenoid core piston that somehow gets stuck inside the solenoid bore. It only happens when the solenoid itself pulls the piston down - it doesn't happen if I manually push it down into the soleniod. Really weird.
Gonna disassemble the piston and solenoid to see if there is something wrong with either part.
Just thought I'd write it here in case someone else has the same problem :)

Coming in late on this thread. Just curious if you ended up fixing this problem? I have a very intermittent problem similar to this so just curious how you went. My problem is so intermittent that it isn't really an issue at the moment as it only gets stuck in the down position very, very rarely. And weirdly, mainly when testing the idol rather than during game play. Maybe its the vibration during game play that is enough to keep it working?? I suspect like yours it's not the plastic part that gets stuck underneath the plastic trough, it's the actual solenoid core piston that somehow gets stuck inside the solenoid bore so just wondering how you went and what your fix ended up being? Apart from this idol works beatifically, and even more so since replacing both the motor and gear assembly with a brand new one a few months ago. Was good to also pull the entire idol mechanism out of the game so I could give it a good clean - including giving the optos a good clean - before reassembly.

It was the metal piston that had gotten worn at one point where it normally rests through the bracket hole, so it could actually get stuck on the hole edge. I think I greased it and also slightly increased the hole size, so it couldn't get stuck anymore. Of course replacing it could have been an option as well..

I disassembled the bracket with the solenoid and piston and the attached plastic, so I could "feel" at which position it had the tendency to get stuck first before I could fix the problem.