Mr/Mrs Pacman lamp issues

[shardian]

I bought this Mr/Mrs Pacman pin with an Ultimate MPU in it, and need
some help getting my CPU controlled lamps working. Currently when I
boot the game, about half the lamps turn on and about half stay off.
That is how it stays even in lamp test. Same with the maze lamps,
about half on, half off.

So I pulled J3 on the Power board and got the following readings:
TP1: 7.82 Vdc
TP2: 184.5 Vdc
TP3: 36.8 Vdc
TP4: 7.21 Vac
TP5: 46.1 Vdc

The strange thing was that even with J3 pulled off, there was still a
handful of CPU controlled lamps still lit.

I put J3 back on and took readings again. With J3 connected:
TP1: 7.3 Vdc
TP2: 245 Vdc
TP3: 15.1 Vdc
TP4: 0.0 Vac
TP5: 46.1 Vdc


I have been searching and haven't seen anyone with the exact issue I
am currently facing. The throw-off for me is that some lock on, and
some stay off. I figured it should have been one or the other for all
lamps if there was a voltage or board issue. The real kicker was that
some lamps stayed lit when J3 was pulled. I'm hoping that point is the
dead ringer that will clue in someone more wiser than me as to the
issue. This is my first foray into Bally. I prefer my lamp matrices...

[AVP Pinball Division]

Post by shardian
I bought this Mr/Mrs Pacman pin with an Ultimate MPU in it, and need
some help getting my CPU controlled lamps working. Currently when I
boot the game, about half the lamps turn on and about half stay off.
That is how it stays even in lamp test. Same with the maze lamps,
about half on, half off.
TP1: 7.82 Vdc
TP2: 184.5 Vdc
TP3: 36.8 Vdc
TP4: 7.21 Vac
TP5: 46.1 Vdc
The strange thing was that even with J3 pulled off, there was still a
handful of CPU controlled lamps still lit.
TP1: 7.3 Vdc
TP2: 245 Vdc
TP3: 15.1 Vdc
TP4: 0.0 Vac
TP5: 46.1 Vdc
I have been searching and haven't seen anyone with the exact issue I
am currently facing. The throw-off for me is that some lock on, and
some stay off. I figured it should have been one or the other for all
lamps if there was a voltage or board issue. The real kicker was that
some lamps stayed lit when J3 was pulled. I'm hoping that point is the
dead ringer that will clue in someone more wiser than me as to the
issue. This is my first foray into Bally. I prefer my lamp matrices...

Are the displays working? If not then you most likely mixed up the
display/lamp connector. They have the same number of pins, are keyed alike
and close enough that you can mix them up.

Test points: Voltages on the schematics are when the connector is connected
and the game under normal load. With the connector off filter capacitors
and lamp loads are not connected. This causes readings that at first glance
appear to be bad, however, they are correct.

Test point #4: Test the fuse out of circuit and check for weak or corroded
fuse clips. Also check for bad harness/board connections.

Mr. & Mrs. Pac Man does some funny things to get all of those bulbs working.
There is an additional 10 amp fuse going to the maze and a solenoid-expander
looking board on the underside of the playfield by the left lower flipper.
All of the headers are suspect.

This game also has a ground plane issue. The metal insert to which the lamp
driver, aux lamp driver and sound board are affixed needs a wire connected
from it to a ground point in the backbox. The hinge is a poor conductor.
The metal insert acts as an antenna and even the slightest interference can
affect the operation of the aux lamp driver board. this is most noticeable
in self-test when only half of the controlled lamps flash.

You may also have bad SCRs or a bad chip driving a bank of SCRs but that's
less likely.

[shardian]

Displays are working. Display 1 has some occasional junk, so I need to
reflow the solder. That's a minor issue for now.

All fuses have continuity on the fuse clips. F4 is the GI, and I hadnt
really thought about that working/not working yet. More irritated with
the controlled lamps first.
Clay's guides call out what the values should be with J3 connected and
disconnected. I did both. Like I said though, some lamps were locked
on with J3 disconnected which I assume shouldnt be happening.
I have not done any ground mods yet. I did have to replace the power
cord end since the ground pin was gone. It didn't help. I do have the
ground wire screwed in inside the backbox.

I inspected the molex housings down by the power board and found a 5
pin connector with two corroded and disconnected wires,and a third
with a ton of green crud in the housing. These wires go to the coin
door switches. I've tested the game with the MPU J3 disconnected
though which takes the coin door out of the equation and I got the
same results then too. Either way, another thing noted I have to fix.
Just wondering how acid got all the way down to that connector....
I've seen it in a Gottlieb system 1 before, which was why I was
looking for it.

[AVP Pinball Division]

Post by shardian
Displays are working. Display 1 has some occasional junk, so I need to
reflow the solder. That's a minor issue for now.
All fuses have continuity on the fuse clips. F4 is the GI, and I hadnt
really thought about that working/not working yet. More irritated with
the controlled lamps first.
Clay's guides call out what the values should be with J3 connected and
disconnected. I did both. Like I said though, some lamps were locked
on with J3 disconnected which I assume shouldnt be happening.
I have not done any ground mods yet. I did have to replace the power
cord end since the ground pin was gone. It didn't help. I do have the
ground wire screwed in inside the backbox.
I inspected the molex housings down by the power board and found a 5
pin connector with two corroded and disconnected wires,and a third
with a ton of green crud in the housing. These wires go to the coin
door switches. I've tested the game with the MPU J3 disconnected
though which takes the coin door out of the equation and I got the
same results then too. Either way, another thing noted I have to fix.
Just wondering how acid got all the way down to that connector....
I've seen it in a Gottlieb system 1 before, which was why I was
looking for it.

The alkali leaches along the copper traces. When the board is powered it
goes farther due to electrolytic action. I've seen it creep from the bottom
of the board all the way to the 35 pin connector at the very top.

I'll play around with J3 on the machine I have in the shop tomorrow and see
if I can duplicate some of your issues.

[shardian]

Post by shardian
Displays are working. Display 1 has some occasional junk, so I need to
reflow the solder. That's a minor issue for now.
All fuses have continuity on the fuse clips. F4 is the GI, and I hadnt
really thought about that working/not working yet. More irritated with
the controlled lamps first.
Clay's guides call out what the values should be with J3 connected and
disconnected. I did both. Like I said though, some lamps were locked
on with J3 disconnected which I assume shouldnt be happening.
I have not done any ground mods yet. I did have to replace the power
cord end since the ground pin was gone. It didn't help. I do have the
ground wire screwed in inside the backbox.
I inspected the molex housings down by the power board and found a 5
pin connector with two corroded and disconnected wires,and a third
with a ton of green crud in the housing. These wires go to the coin
door switches. I've tested the game with the MPU J3 disconnected
though which takes the coin door out of the equation and I got the
same results then too. Either way, another thing noted I have to fix.
Just wondering how acid got all the way down to that connector....
I've seen it in a Gottlieb system 1 before, which was why I was
looking for it.

The alkali leaches along the copper traces.  When the board is powered it
goes farther due to electrolytic action.  I've seen it creep from the bottom
of the board all the way to the 35 pin connector at the very top.
I'll play around with J3 on the machine I have in the shop tomorrow and see
if I can duplicate some of your issues.
--
Pistol Pete
AVP Pinball Division
Towson, MD
410-583-9200
web:http://www.AVPpinball.com

That would be pretty crazy travel, because that means it went from the
backbox all the way down to the power board. That connector is about 1
foot from the power board in the body of the cabinet. I see no other
way for it to get there, so yeah that's crazy.

[shardian]

Wow, found some acid in 2 pins each on both maze connectors...at th
maze

So the acid traveled all the way from the main board down the wirin
harness to the playfield and power transformer. Is this normal for
Bally

--
shardia
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.co

[Pacpin]

Post by shardian
Wow, found some acid in 2 pins each on both maze connectors...at th
maze!
So the acid traveled all the way from the main board down the wirin
harness to the playfield and power transformer. Is this normal for
Bally?

I wouldn't necessarily say it's normal, but it can happen

--
Pacpi
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.co

[AVP Pinball Division]

Wow, found some acid in 2 pins each on both maze connectors...at the
maze!
So the acid traveled all the way from the main board down the wiring
harness to the playfield and power transformer. Is this normal for a
Bally?
--
shardian
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

It shouldn't make it more than an inch into the harness. If you have stuff
at the actual maze connection then someone put some other fluid on that
connector.

[shardian]

Well for now I'm going to replace the contaminated connectors, though
I dont think they are part of the issue. I'm also going to do some
ground modding in the backbox. I'll check back in later if I havent
solved it.

[shardian]

So I've been testing a bit more. issue is definitely independent of th
mpu. I verified every connector in the game was connected properly an
not contaminated. I did some ohm meter checking of grounding in th
backbox. I checked every ground point to each other and to the mai
ground wire. I had good continuity at all with just a few ohms o
resistance.

I checked voltages at every test point in the backbox, and all came bac
fine. There was little no AC ripple found on the solenoid driver board

As for the GI being dead, that is explainable because there is a rela
under the playfield that relies on a driven 555 lamp to work. Withou
that, it will be dead
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the operating theory of th
lamps in a Bally. I'm assuming that somewhere under the playfield I hav
a short maybe that is pulling all the lamps to ground and bypassing th
driver boards. My next step is to make a map of all lamps that are lit
and all that are unlit to look for a pattern

Considering I have 5vdc at the lamp drivers, what is the possibilit
that there is an issue with the bridge at the power board? None? Maybe?

Later this week I am going to take my lamp drivers to a friends pac pi
to test them, and then bring back his power board to test in mine
Hopefully that will rule out some more possibilities and maybe supply
solution

If anyone has anything to offer, I'd be super appreciative

--
shardia
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.co

[shardian]

I've not been able to visit my local friend's plave to troubleshoot wit
his Pac pin yet, which stinks

I did tinker a bit yesterday since I was off work, and made a map of th
locked on lamps. While doing this, I noticed something odd: The majorit
of the lamps lock on immediately at power up

However, there are 4 "red" lamps in the pac maze (left 4 in bottom row
that don't turn on until the displays turn on.

I shot a video of power on and will upload this evening

--
shardia
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.co

[shardian]

Here is the link to the video:

[shardian]

Have a little more to add. I have been avoiding playing the game since
I wanted the lamps to work before I tore into it. Today I figured I
should go ahead and play a bit. During the first game, When I hit the
flippers the displays would show junk. After 2-3 games, all displays
but player 1 stabilized. Player 1 eventually went to fully lit up -
all "8"s. Someone please help! Surely I've given enough info that I'm
on the path that someone else has seen before?

[bank-a-ball]

It may be a long shot, but if you took the head off the game when you brought it home, you should examine the head-to-base connectors. I brought a Mr & Mrs Pac home more than 20 years ago and when I reassembled it, I made the wrong connection for two wire groups in the harness. I had never run into a game before that point which did not have completely unique connectors. From that point on, I always matched wire colors. I can' remember the exact symptoms, but the lights were screwed up.

[shardian]

Post by bank-a-ball
It may be a long shot, but if you took the head off the game when you brought it home, you should examine the head-to-base connectors. I brought a Mr & Mrs Pac home more than 20 years ago and when I reassembled it, I made the wrong connection for two wire groups in the harness. I had never run into a game before that point which did not have completely unique connectors. From that point on, I always matched wire colors. I can' remember the exact symptoms, but the lights were screwed up.

The guy I bought it from had taken off the head. When I brought it
home I just popped the top head loose and leaned it over. Since then,
I have taken out the display glass and verified every single connector
in the game was plugged in correctly.

[dasvis]

I had to rebuild EVERY damn connector in my piece of shit Mr & Mrs pa
man before it worked correctly. What a pain in the ASS that game was.
have bannished it to a friends house & it has worked flawlessly eve
since

--
dasvi
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.co

[shardian]

I had to rebuild EVERY damn connector in my piece of shit Mr & Mrs pac
man before it worked correctly. What a pain in the ASS that game was. I
have bannished it to a friends house & it has worked flawlessly ever
since.
--
dasvis
This USENET post sent from  http://rgparchive.com

Pretty good advice there actually. I'm already on that path. I just
can't trust a single dang connection in this thing. I'm pulling every
board, and going to town. Already found more cracked solder joints.

[dasvis]

Post by shardian

Post by dasvis
I had to rebuild EVERY damn connector in my piece of shit Mr & Mr

pac

Post by dasvis
man before it worked correctly. What a pain in the ASS that game was

I

Post by dasvis
have bannished it to a friends house & it has worked flawlessly ever
since.
--
dasvis
This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com

Pretty good advice there actually. I'm already on that path. I just
can't trust a single dang connection in this thing. I'm pulling every
board, and going to town. Already found more cracked solder joints.

You will get really good on replacing these .100 Molex connectors.

--
dasvi
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.co

[shardian]

A bit more information:

I can light any non-lit cpu controlled lamp by grounding the
"switched" side to the ground braid.

Using a DMM with red lead on the cpu lamp power rail and black lead on
ground braid, I get 3.5Vac, and 6.5Vdc. I read in another place that
these should be about equal.

Also, I grounded the lamp associated with the GI flasher relay and the
GI lit up correctly, so no problem with GI.

I know I'm mostly talking to myself at this point, but I'm still
hoping someone like Clay will come along and tell me that one little
thing I'm missing before I go through the effort of needlessly
changing a boatload of connectors.

[j***@gmail.com]

I've had Mr/Mrs Pacman for about 20 years and it's been working great. Had to replace a bunch of parts, but it's good. However, now I need to get into the lower glass area to replace a bulb, but for the life of me I can't figure out how to remove the lower glass in the points section. Can someone provide some guidance?

Thanks.

Jerry

[cody chunn]

It slides up and out just like the upper glass does. It may have retainers
in there that you need to slide back out of the way...reach down through the
holes in the bottom of the upper section and feel around WITH POWER OFF.

-cody


wrote in message news:9f396880-1b68-4c1d-9977-***@googlegroups.com...


I've had Mr/Mrs Pacman for about 20 years and it's been working great. Had
to replace a bunch of parts, but it's good. However, now I need to get into
the lower glass area to replace a bulb, but for the life of me I can't
figure out how to remove the lower glass in the points section. Can someone
provide some guidance?

Thanks.

Jerry

[dasvis]

Post by cody chunn
It slides up and out just like the upper glass does. It may hav
retainers
in there that you need to slide back out of the way...reach down throug
the
holes in the bottom of the upper section and feel around WITH POWE
OFF.

That is correct. Really easy once you find the latche

--
dasvi
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.co

[Jason Doe]

Post by shardian
I can light any non-lit cpu controlled lamp by grounding the
"switched" side to the ground braid.
Using a DMM with red lead on the cpu lamp power rail and black lead on
ground braid, I get 3.5Vac, and 6.5Vdc. I read in another place that
these should be about equal.
Also, I grounded the lamp associated with the GI flasher relay and the
GI lit up correctly, so no problem with GI.
I know I'm mostly talking to myself at this point, but I'm still
hoping someone like Clay will come along and tell me that one little
thing I'm missing before I go through the effort of needlessly
changing a boatload of connectors.

I know I am resurrecting an ancient thread but having very similar issues and wondering if by chance you still are around and ever figured it out.

[John Robertson]

Post by Jason Doe

Post by shardian
I can light any non-lit cpu controlled lamp by grounding the
"switched" side to the ground braid.
Using a DMM with red lead on the cpu lamp power rail and black lead on
ground braid, I get 3.5Vac, and 6.5Vdc. I read in another place that
these should be about equal.
Also, I grounded the lamp associated with the GI flasher relay and the
GI lit up correctly, so no problem with GI.
I know I'm mostly talking to myself at this point, but I'm still
hoping someone like Clay will come along and tell me that one little
thing I'm missing before I go through the effort of needlessly
changing a boatload of connectors.

I know I am resurrecting an ancient thread but having very similar issues and wondering if by chance you still are around and ever figured it out.

If you have lights that aren't turning on by the CPU, yet you can light
them at the tab of the light bulb to ground, then the problem is logic,
wiring, or blown SCRs.

Try grounding the lead for any suspect lamp at the driver board - it
should light up. Then try at the drive leg of the SCR - the lead going
to the pin on the plug... If it lights then the problem is perhaps
connections to MPU or bad SCRs.

Was there any corrosion in your game? Then check the lamp control lines
pins at the MPU connector first.

John :-#)#