Tech: Earthshaker flipper problem

[deane]

Greetings:

Just bought an old neglected Earthshaker. Right flipper works OK, but left
flippers don't. This machine is older vintage than what I'm used to.
Figured out how to run diagnostics, but none available for flippers as far
as I can tell. Questions:

1. Contacts (for EOS switch I guess??) on lower left flipper were open. I
bent them back so they would be closed. Did this since they were closed on
working right flipper. Was this the correct thing to do?

2. What tests can I perform to troubleshoot this problem? Better yet, is
there a published troubleshooting procedure? The only "marvin" stuff I have
seems to be for newer generation Williams machines.

Thanks for any help you can offer.
DD


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[seymour-shabow]

Post by deane
Just bought an old neglected Earthshaker. Right flipper works OK, but left
flippers don't. This machine is older vintage than what I'm used to.
Figured out how to run diagnostics, but none available for flippers as far
1. Contacts (for EOS switch I guess??) on lower left flipper were open. I
bent them back so they would be closed. Did this since they were closed on
working right flipper. Was this the correct thing to do?

Yes, contacts on non-fliptronics flippers are normally closed. There
are no diagnostics for flippers on older machines - usually you put it
in test mode and they should work so you can troubleshoot wiring issues.

Post by deane
2. What tests can I perform to troubleshoot this problem? Better yet, is
there a published troubleshooting procedure? The only "marvin" stuff I have
seems to be for newer generation Williams machines.

Read the marvin system 11 guide. ;)

[seymour-shabow]

Post by seymour-shabow

Post by deane
Just bought an old neglected Earthshaker. Right flipper works OK, but
left flippers don't. This machine is older vintage than what I'm used
to. Figured out how to run diagnostics, but none available for
1. Contacts (for EOS switch I guess??) on lower left flipper were
open. I bent them back so they would be closed. Did this since they
were closed on working right flipper. Was this the correct thing to do?

Yes, contacts on non-fliptronics flippers are normally closed. There
are no diagnostics for flippers on older machines - usually you put it
in test mode and they should work so you can troubleshoot wiring issues.

Clarify: Put it in test mode means any of the test modes, not a flipper
specific test mode - the flipper relay should click on.

-scott CARGPB#29

[TheKorn]

Post by deane
Just bought an old neglected Earthshaker. Right flipper works OK, but
left flippers don't. This machine is older vintage than what I'm used
to. Figured out how to run diagnostics, but none available for
1. Contacts (for EOS switch I guess??) on lower left flipper were
open. I bent them back so they would be closed. Did this since they
were closed on working right flipper. Was this the correct thing to
do?
2. What tests can I perform to troubleshoot this problem? Better
yet, is there a published troubleshooting procedure? The only
"marvin" stuff I have seems to be for newer generation Williams
machines.

You can start by replacing the fuse for the left flippers -- it blew when
the EOS switches were open.

After that, put the game into any test mode or adjustments, and flip away
to diagnose.

[seymour-shabow]

Post by TheKorn

Post by deane
Just bought an old neglected Earthshaker. Right flipper works OK, but
left flippers don't. This machine is older vintage than what I'm used
to. Figured out how to run diagnostics, but none available for
1. Contacts (for EOS switch I guess??) on lower left flipper were
open. I bent them back so they would be closed. Did this since they
were closed on working right flipper. Was this the correct thing to
do?
2. What tests can I perform to troubleshoot this problem? Better
yet, is there a published troubleshooting procedure? The only
"marvin" stuff I have seems to be for newer generation Williams
machines.

You can start by replacing the fuse for the left flippers -- it blew when
the EOS switches were open.
After that, put the game into any test mode or adjustments, and flip away
to diagnose.

sys11 has independent flipper fuses? I never knew that. Why would the
fuse blow with an open EOS though?

-scott CARGPB#29

[TheKorn]

Post by seymour-shabow
sys11 has independent flipper fuses? I never knew that. Why would
the fuse blow with an open EOS though?

Yeah, IIRC even HS has independent left and right. For sure by BK2K they
had independent left and right fuses.

Though thinking about it, if the EOS was always open it should have been
as-if it was at the end of stroke all the time. That shouldn't cause a
fuse to blow. (...but he should check it anyway, just in case.)

[Gott Lieb?]

If someone previously installed those stupid series wound flipper coils
that WMS had used awhile, and the EOS switch was gapped open all of the
time, it would blow the fuse. If the stock parallel wound coils are in
there, and the EOS switch was gapped open, I don't see why it would blow
the fuse.

Jim
CARGPB35

Post by seymour-shabow
sys11 has independent flipper fuses? I never knew that. Why would the
fuse blow with an open EOS though?
-scott CARGPB#29

[GOCATGO]

Just bought an old neglected Earthshaker.  Right flipper works OK, but left
flippers don't.  This machine is older vintage than what I'm used to.
Figured out how to run diagnostics, but none available for flippers as far
1.  Contacts (for EOS switch I guess??) on lower left flipper were open.  I
bent them back so they would be closed.  Did this since they were closed on
working right flipper.  Was this the correct thing to do?
2.  What tests can I perform to troubleshoot this problem?  Better yet, is
there a published troubleshooting procedure?  The only "marvin" stuff I have
seems to be for newer generation Williams machines.
Thanks for any help you can offer.
DD
** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**

DD

Check your e-mail.

Russ
www.Team-EM.com

[deane]

Thanks a bunch for the suggestions. Here's where I'm at:

1. Checked all fuses and they tested OK.
2. Measured 78V on good right flipper, nothing on left flippers.
2. Measured 78V on left & right flipper wires coming off Aux. Power board
and into J5 connector on Backbox Interconnect board.
3. Have continuity (and 78V) on J8 connector for right flipper wire, but
not for left flipper wire! The schematic shows no components between these
two connectors, just a solid line. So I guess that trace on the PC board is
bad or something.

Anyway, rather than take the board out, etc., what would be wrong with
running a jumper wire across those two connectors? I wouldn't be bypassing
any electronics. Any downside to this?? As you can tell, I'm pretty new at
this.

BTW, I also noticed a jumper across two connectors for a flipper ground
wire. I don't understand why it's needed since I can measure continuity
from one connector pin to the next.

Thanks again for your help.
DD

Just bought an old neglected Earthshaker. Right flipper works OK, but left
flippers don't. This machine is older vintage than what I'm used to.
Figured out how to run diagnostics, but none available for flippers as far
1. Contacts (for EOS switch I guess??) on lower left flipper were open. I
bent them back so they would be closed. Did this since they were closed on
working right flipper. Was this the correct thing to do?
2. What tests can I perform to troubleshoot this problem? Better yet, is
there a published troubleshooting procedure? The only "marvin" stuff I
have
seems to be for newer generation Williams machines.
Thanks for any help you can offer.
DD
** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**

DD

Check your e-mail.

Russ
www.Team-EM.com


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Borygard]

Flipper voltages run through the interconnect board. Don't know the
connectors and such at the moment, but if you pull the interconnect
board off and look at the traces on the back, you'll likely find one
fried. Also, fuses on the interconnect board should be checked too.

Post by deane
1. Checked all fuses and they tested OK.
2. Measured 78V on good right flipper, nothing on left flippers.
2. Measured 78V on left & right flipper wires coming off Aux. Power board
and into J5 connector on Backbox Interconnect board.
3.  Have continuity (and 78V) on J8 connector for right flipper wire, but
not for left flipper wire!  The schematic shows no components between these
two connectors, just a solid line.  So I guess that trace on the PC board is
bad or something.
Anyway, rather than take the board out, etc., what would be wrong with
running a jumper wire across those two connectors?  I wouldn't be bypassing
any electronics.  Any downside to this??  As you can tell, I'm pretty new at
this.
BTW, I also noticed a jumper across two connectors for a flipper ground
wire.  I don't understand why it's needed since I can measure continuity
from one connector pin to the next.
Thanks again for your help.
DD

Just bought an old neglected Earthshaker. Right flipper works OK, but left
flippers don't. This machine is older vintage than what I'm used to.
Figured out how to run diagnostics, but none available for flippers as far
1. Contacts (for EOS switch I guess??) on lower left flipper were open. I
bent them back so they would be closed. Did this since they were closed on
working right flipper. Was this the correct thing to do?
2. What tests can I perform to troubleshoot this problem? Better yet, is
there a published troubleshooting procedure? The only "marvin" stuff I
have
seems to be for newer generation Williams machines.
Thanks for any help you can offer.
DD
** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**

DD
Check your e-mail.
Russwww.Team-EM.com
** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[TheKorn]

Post by deane
1. Checked all fuses and they tested OK.
2. Measured 78V on good right flipper, nothing on left flippers.
2. Measured 78V on left & right flipper wires coming off Aux. Power
board and into J5 connector on Backbox Interconnect board.
3. Have continuity (and 78V) on J8 connector for right flipper wire,
but not for left flipper wire! The schematic shows no components
between these two connectors, just a solid line. So I guess that
trace on the PC board is bad or something.

Mmmmm, more likely that you have a cut wire someplace. I don't remember
if those go through the interconnect board or not, but that's also a
possible point of failure. I'd definitely chase this down before going
much futher.

Post by deane
Anyway, rather than take the board out, etc., what would be wrong with
running a jumper wire across those two connectors? I wouldn't be
bypassing any electronics. Any downside to this?? As you can tell,
I'm pretty new at this.

That's *not* a great idea, because you'll be running twice the current
over the working connector. Outside of the GI, the flipper circuits take
*the most* power in the whole game. So you'll just wind up eventually
roaching the right side, and then having to fix that AND the original
fix.

Post by deane
BTW, I also noticed a jumper across two connectors for a flipper
ground wire. I don't understand why it's needed since I can measure
continuity from one connector pin to the next.

They loop wires through more than one connector because the connectors
aren't rated to handle the amount of current the game is planning on
drawing through them. e.g. If they need 10A for something, and each
connector can handle at most 7A, then they need two of them for a
capacity of 14A (of which they'd use 10).

[deane]

Progress!

Removed interconnect board and 1" of trace was melted. Soldered in jumper
and turned on game -- fuse immediately blew. I figure that is way better
than melting traces. Studied "marvin" flipper troubleshooting and realized
both left flippers were wired backwards -- wow, somebody more ignorant than
me must exist!! Switched outside wires and flippers work, but very weak.
Filed contact points, then did "marvin" test with game off which says I
should read a little over 4 ohms on both high and low power side. Am
actually getting 6.6-7.2 on high and low power sides on each flipper.

Not sure what to make of this. EOS contacts aren't great even after filing,
but don't seem any worse than right flipper that works just fine. Is it
time for new coils since they were wired in backwards??

Thanks for your thoughts.
DD

Post by TheKorn

Post by deane
1. Checked all fuses and they tested OK.
2. Measured 78V on good right flipper, nothing on left flippers.
2. Measured 78V on left & right flipper wires coming off Aux. Power
board and into J5 connector on Backbox Interconnect board.
3. Have continuity (and 78V) on J8 connector for right flipper wire,
but not for left flipper wire! The schematic shows no components
between these two connectors, just a solid line. So I guess that
trace on the PC board is bad or something.

Mmmmm, more likely that you have a cut wire someplace. I don't remember
if those go through the interconnect board or not, but that's also a
possible point of failure. I'd definitely chase this down before going
much futher.

Post by deane
Anyway, rather than take the board out, etc., what would be wrong with
running a jumper wire across those two connectors? I wouldn't be
bypassing any electronics. Any downside to this?? As you can tell,
I'm pretty new at this.

That's *not* a great idea, because you'll be running twice the current
over the working connector. Outside of the GI, the flipper circuits take
*the most* power in the whole game. So you'll just wind up eventually
roaching the right side, and then having to fix that AND the original
fix.

Post by deane
BTW, I also noticed a jumper across two connectors for a flipper
ground wire. I don't understand why it's needed since I can measure
continuity from one connector pin to the next.

They loop wires through more than one connector because the connectors
aren't rated to handle the amount of current the game is planning on
drawing through them. e.g. If they need 10A for something, and each
connector can handle at most 7A, then they need two of them for a
capacity of 14A (of which they'd use 10).
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
http://www.webwidevideo.com/

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[seymour-shabow]

Post by deane
Progress!
Removed interconnect board and 1" of trace was melted. Soldered in jumper
and turned on game -- fuse immediately blew. I figure that is way better
than melting traces. Studied "marvin" flipper troubleshooting and realized
both left flippers were wired backwards -- wow, somebody more ignorant than
me must exist!! Switched outside wires and flippers work, but very weak.
Filed contact points, then did "marvin" test with game off which says I
should read a little over 4 ohms on both high and low power side. Am
actually getting 6.6-7.2 on high and low power sides on each flipper.
Not sure what to make of this. EOS contacts aren't great even after filing,
but don't seem any worse than right flipper that works just fine. Is it
time for new coils since they were wired in backwards??

Did you open the flipper to measure the low power side of the coil?

How many diodes on the flipper coils, 1 it's a series wound and 2 if
it's parallel wound.

Were the EOS switches replaced with the correct ones with the fat
tungsten points?

-scott CARGPB#29

[deane]

1. These are parallel wound, FL-11722 coils.

2. Not sure about the EOS switches. Only know they look exactly like the
one on the right flipper (which works fine).

3. Here are the readings I got:

Rt. flipper (good) LL UL
Hi power 4.8 6.6 6.6
Lo power 5.1 7.2 6.7
Lo, EOS open 156 156 156

Thanks,
DD

Post by seymour-shabow

Post by deane
Progress!
Removed interconnect board and 1" of trace was melted. Soldered in
jumper and turned on game -- fuse immediately blew. I figure that is way
better than melting traces. Studied "marvin" flipper troubleshooting and
realized both left flippers were wired backwards -- wow, somebody more
ignorant than me must exist!! Switched outside wires and flippers work,
but very weak. Filed contact points, then did "marvin" test with game off
which says I should read a little over 4 ohms on both high and low power
side. Am actually getting 6.6-7.2 on high and low power sides on each
flipper.
Not sure what to make of this. EOS contacts aren't great even after
filing, but don't seem any worse than right flipper that works just fine.
Is it time for new coils since they were wired in backwards??

Did you open the flipper to measure the low power side of the coil?
How many diodes on the flipper coils, 1 it's a series wound and 2 if it's
parallel wound.
Were the EOS switches replaced with the correct ones with the fat tungsten
points?
-scott CARGPB#29

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[seymour-shabow]

Post by deane
1. These are parallel wound, FL-11722 coils.

Those are the wrong coils - they're one step weaker than the 11630's
that are supposed to be in there.

-scott CARGPB#29

[TheKorn]

Post by deane
Removed interconnect board and 1" of trace was melted. Soldered in
jumper and turned on game -- fuse immediately blew. I figure that is
way better than melting traces. Studied "marvin" flipper
troubleshooting and realized both left flippers were wired backwards
-- wow, somebody more ignorant than me must exist!! Switched outside
wires and flippers work, but very weak. Filed contact points, then did
"marvin" test with game off which says I should read a little over 4
ohms on both high and low power side. Am actually getting 6.6-7.2 on
high and low power sides on each flipper.
Not sure what to make of this. EOS contacts aren't great even after
filing, but don't seem any worse than right flipper that works just
fine. Is it time for new coils since they were wired in backwards??

Hang on there, killer... what do the left side cabinet flipper switches
look like? Did you file those as well?

You have one step weaker coils in there than you should, but if you have
them on both sides then both sides should give equal power. (duh, no
sh*t, right?) So if you're getting unequal power, then you have some
other problem that should probably be fixed first.

The only thing that really NEEDS a lot of power on earthshaker is that
center ramp, and being one coil strength lower shouldn't put that much of
a crimp on that shot. (I've depowered games before, for various
reasons.)

In most likely to least likely, it's gunked up EOS switches, gunked up
cabinet switches... (big space) ... bad/weak coils. They *do* happen,
but don't happen very often at all.

Oh yeah, if you activate the flipper by hand, does it take a similar
amount of effort left/right? (it should be pretty easy to rotate the
flippers by hand.)

[deane]

This makes sense to me. Turns out the UL flipper is supposed to be an 11722
according to the manual, while the LL is an 11630. Somewhere along the line
the LL got replaced with an 11722. The UL flipper seems to be strong enough
for the game, but the LL is very weak. No mechanical problems, but I
noticed the EOS switch has kind of lost the "spring" in its outer leaf, so
I'll replace it and see if the 11722 will cut the mustard.

Thanks a bunch.
DD

Post by TheKorn

Post by deane
Removed interconnect board and 1" of trace was melted. Soldered in
jumper and turned on game -- fuse immediately blew. I figure that is
way better than melting traces. Studied "marvin" flipper
troubleshooting and realized both left flippers were wired backwards
-- wow, somebody more ignorant than me must exist!! Switched outside
wires and flippers work, but very weak. Filed contact points, then did
"marvin" test with game off which says I should read a little over 4
ohms on both high and low power side. Am actually getting 6.6-7.2 on
high and low power sides on each flipper.
Not sure what to make of this. EOS contacts aren't great even after
filing, but don't seem any worse than right flipper that works just
fine. Is it time for new coils since they were wired in backwards??

Hang on there, killer... what do the left side cabinet flipper switches
look like? Did you file those as well?
You have one step weaker coils in there than you should, but if you have
them on both sides then both sides should give equal power. (duh, no
sh*t, right?) So if you're getting unequal power, then you have some
other problem that should probably be fixed first.
The only thing that really NEEDS a lot of power on earthshaker is that
center ramp, and being one coil strength lower shouldn't put that much of
a crimp on that shot. (I've depowered games before, for various
reasons.)
In most likely to least likely, it's gunked up EOS switches, gunked up
cabinet switches... (big space) ... bad/weak coils. They *do* happen,
but don't happen very often at all.
Oh yeah, if you activate the flipper by hand, does it take a similar
amount of effort left/right? (it should be pretty easy to rotate the
flippers by hand.)
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
http://www.webwidevideo.com/

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **