Discussion:
What is the relative value of a Gottlieb Diamond Jack vs. King of Diamonds?
(too old to reply)
Swamp Wizard
2014-05-08 10:39:47 UTC
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I own a Diamond Jack in excellent condition, but I am interested in swapping it for a King of Diamond of similar quality, as I have decided that I prefer to have the special feature rather than just add-a-ball. It seems to me that the Diamond Jack is rarer, so it should be worth more than a King of Diamonds, but perhaps not.

What do you all think?
Jason Heiser
2014-05-08 16:04:00 UTC
Permalink
This RGP thread from 2011 covers the same ground:

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.games.pinball/ItY63hGRNC4/discussion
Over the years I've been puzzled by the statistics of the prices of Replay
vs. AAB versions of the same game. I was under the impression that AAB
versions would be more desirable to collectors (and more valuable) for
several reasons--rarity and meaningful rewards. But in many cases the data
doesn't agree--the replay version sells for more than the AAB.
I've had a King of Diamonds for many years and thought that Diamond Jack
would be a better game. Then this year I found a Diamond Jack. Now I know
why the replay is worth more. Diamond Jack is missing the rotating special
(A, K, Q, J, 10) in the center of the playfield. This is the crowning
feature of KoD. However, having that on an AAB would completely unbalance
the game and ruin it, so I understand why it's not there on Diamond Jack.
They *really* are different games. Layout and artwork are nearly identical,
but strategies, play, and rewards are different. Each has their appeal and
some will prefer one over the other. But on average, KoD is preferred over
DJ. The statistics bear that out, and the prices reflect that.
So for years I thought the price guide was wrong--and I wrote it! But I
followed the data even though I didn't agree with it. Now I agree with the
data.
Ron, (Boatcat)
2014-05-09 04:47:40 UTC
Permalink
IMO, They are equal in value.
Although there are only 650 Diamond
Jack Units produced, you'll find in
the books most AAB Games had production
runs of 500-650 units. Therefore the
Diamond Jack Model was an average size
run and is not rare.
The 500-650 unit AAB production
run in the supply-demand concept seems
to be about right in keeping the value
of the AAB Games verses it's much more
plentiful replay sisters in unison.
Ron, (Boatcat)
2014-05-09 05:55:54 UTC
Permalink
IMO, If you're simply talking
production numbers, you need to
consider the following:
Although there are only 650
Diamond Jack Units produced, you'll
find in the books most AAB Games had
production runs of 500-650 units.
Therefore the Diamond Jack Model was
an average size run and is not rare.
The 500-650 unit AAB production
run in the supply-demand concept seems
to be about right in keeping the value
of the AAB Games verses it's much more
plentiful replay sisters in unison.
The above explains only the
production numbers. However, there is
a BIG difference in the actual game
play, (as explained above), and I'm
sure is why KoD is valued somewhat
higher. It's my opinion that Diamond
Jack is simply a modified version of
the original replay design, (KoD), to
satisfy the AAB Market, (and save on
research and development). I know Gtb.
did this often in the '60's and '70's
and when they did, at times one or the
other turned out to be much less
appealing.
IMO, both of these games are
good ones, but in having played both,
KoD is "Hands Down," and has a tremendous
following among '60's fans due to a
sequence-completed special mode sounding
like Parris Island Target Practice if
you're, "In a Zone." Great Direct
Special Shots that don't use the score
motor to increment, meaning, a shot up
to the King or Queen pop bumper to
bounce back and forth off it's own
target might reel you off 7-8 replays in
about 3 seconds, or, a shot at the "J"
in the #2 carousel position will likely
ricochet over and also hit the "J" target
for 2 games in less-than 1 second.
It'll crack you up! A good game on this
one has you shaking your head all the
way up to the very end.
Ron, (Boatcat)
2014-05-09 06:02:44 UTC
Permalink
IMO, If you're simply talking
production numbers, you need to consider
the following:
Although there are only 650
Diamond Jack Units produced, you'll
find in the books most AAB Games had
production runs of 500-650 units.
Therefore the Diamond Jack Model was
an average size run and is not rare.
The 500-650 unit AAB production
run in the supply-demand concept seems
to be about right in keeping the value
of the AAB Games verses it's much more
plentiful replay sisters in unison.
The above explains only the
production numbers. However, there is
a BIG difference in the actual game
play, (as explained above), and I'm
sure is why KoD is valued somewhat
higher. It's my opinion that Diamond
Jack is simply a modified version of
the original replay design, (KoD), to
satisfy the AAB Market, (and save on
research and development). I know Gtb.
did this often in the '60's and '70's
and when they did, at times one or the
other turned out to be much less
appealing.
IMO, both of these games are
good ones, but in having played both,
KoD is "Hands Down," and has a tremendous
following among '60's fans due to a
sequence-completed special mode sounding
like Parris Island Target Practice if
you're, "In a Zone." Great Direct
Special Shots that don't use the score
motor to increment, meaning, a shot up
to the King or Queen pop bumper to
bounce back and forth off it's own
target might reel you off 7-8 replays in
about 3 seconds, or, a shot at the "J"
in the #2 carousel position when lit for
special will likely ricochet over and
also hit the "J" target for 2 games in
less than 1 second. It'll crack you up!
A good game on this one has you shaking
your head all the way up to the very
end.
Swamp Wizard
2014-05-09 09:20:15 UTC
Permalink
So for a pair of games in the same condition, how much more would the KOD be over DJ? I plan to sell my DJ after getting a KOD.
c***@provide.net
2014-05-09 10:23:42 UTC
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Personally i think diamond jack is worth more than king of diamonds.
it does a really nice job of the whole add-a-ball thing. (some games
don't do this nearly as well.) but is it worth a lot more? no. actually
i think they are fairly equal, but i would give DJ about a $100 bump
of king of diamonds. not much more, but a big more. i think it's an
interesting variant of KoD. i mean you can't throw a rock without
hitting a KoD right? practically can buy one at walmart! but DJ, you'll
have to hunt to find that one...
Post by Swamp Wizard
So for a pair of games in the same condition, how much more would the KOD be over DJ? I plan to sell my DJ after getting a KOD.
t***@gmail.com
2014-05-09 12:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Swamp Wizard
So for a pair of games in the same condition, how much more would the KOD be over DJ? I plan to sell my DJ after getting a KOD.
It must kind of depend what one was brought up with. They have KoD booking
for more but once I shopped one out and played a few games on it, me myself
absolutely had no room at all for it in the gameroom. Completely different
playing game than D.J. A Diamond Jack will always be in my gameroom.
Sounds like you're not so happy with a D.J., but if possible, maybe you
should play a few games on the KoD before committing..
BTW, after I traded the KoD, it did get sold pretty quick for $1,300.00
It was maybe an 8.5 all around.
Swamp Wizard
2014-05-09 22:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Swamp Wizard
So for a pair of games in the same condition, how much more would the KOD be over DJ? I plan to sell my DJ after getting a KOD.
It must kind of depend what one was brought up with. They have KoD booking
for more but once I shopped one out and played a few games on it, me myself
absolutely had no room at all for it in the gameroom. Completely different
playing game than D.J. A Diamond Jack will always be in my gameroom.
Sounds like you're not so happy with a D.J., but if possible, maybe you
should play a few games on the KoD before committing..
BTW, after I traded the KoD, it did get sold pretty quick for $1,300.00
It was maybe an 8.5 all around.
I did play a KOD, and bought the DJ thinking it would be as nice (and as well having an AAB just for the sake of it). I found trying to get special lit to be extraordinarily frustrating and therefore addictive. Unfortunately, I have also determined that simply getting a 3rd extra ball for getting the whole set down feels like kissing my sister. Sure, replays are meaningless for home use, but it still feels great to pop it. Ironically, I also have an Apollo, but I saw the AAB Lunar Shot (evidently for the Italian market) that someone was selling, and it made me think that I wouldn't mind getting that for AAB (the color scheme is great!)
t***@gmail.com
2014-05-10 00:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Swamp Wizard
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Swamp Wizard
So for a pair of games in the same condition, how much more would the KOD be over DJ? I plan to sell my DJ after getting a KOD.
It must kind of depend what one was brought up with. They have KoD booking
for more but once I shopped one out and played a few games on it, me myself
absolutely had no room at all for it in the gameroom. Completely different
playing game than D.J. A Diamond Jack will always be in my gameroom.
Sounds like you're not so happy with a D.J., but if possible, maybe you
should play a few games on the KoD before committing..
BTW, after I traded the KoD, it did get sold pretty quick for $1,300.00
It was maybe an 8.5 all around.
I did play a KOD, and bought the DJ thinking it would be as nice (and as well having an AAB just for the sake of it). I found trying to get special lit to be extraordinarily frustrating and therefore addictive. Unfortunately, I have also determined that simply getting a 3rd extra ball for getting the whole set down feels like kissing my sister. Sure, replays are meaningless for home use, but it still feels great to pop it. Ironically, I also have an Apollo, but I saw the AAB Lunar Shot (evidently for the Italian market) that someone was selling, and it made me think that I wouldn't mind getting that for AAB (the color scheme is great!)
pinballtom
2014-05-09 13:01:11 UTC
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Post by Swamp Wizard
I own a Diamond Jack in excellent condition, but I am interested in swapping it for a King of Diamond of similar quality, as I have decided that I prefer to have the special feature rather than just add-a-ball. It seems to me that the Diamond Jack is rarer, so it should be worth more than a King of Diamonds, but perhaps not.
What do you all think?
I would typically say AABs are worth slightly more than replay models,
(~$100 more) with a few exceptions.
An exception where i think the AAB version is worth a lot more,
than the replay model is 2001 / Dimension,
mainly because The AAB version is in much greater demand,
and there are considerably fewer of the AAB version around.
Another were AAB is worth significantly more would be
Astro as compared to 4Square, IMHO.
I would add about $500 to the AAB worth in these cases.
pinhead52
2014-05-09 16:05:56 UTC
Permalink
A very nice condition KoDs can sell for $2K or a little more. Two recent sales in the Dallas area suggest. It is highly desirable.

As to Replay versus AAB Pop-A-Card is nicer, resetting cards. Neptune is nicer, i like the WOW 5 knocks feature and high scoring. I like Cowpoke over Buckaroo, resetting feature again.

Vic Camp on the other hand, being truly a wizard doesnt like AABs, he plays forever on one nickel :-)

to each his own

ken
i***@gmail.com
2014-05-09 16:39:32 UTC
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Post by pinhead52
A very nice condition KoDs can sell for $2K or a little more. Two recent sales in the Dallas area suggest. It is highly desirable.
As to Replay versus AAB Pop-A-Card is nicer, resetting cards. Neptune is nicer, i like the WOW 5 knocks feature and high scoring. I like Cowpoke over Buckaroo, resetting feature again.
Vic Camp on the other hand, being truly a wizard doesnt like AABs, he plays forever on one nickel :-)
to each his own
ken
I'm a great fan of Sing Along, and when I picked up a Melody I thought that must be even better.
In reality the rule set on Melody is very poorly thought out and makes it a much less fun game to play than Sing Along
So I guess it depends on how the game has been adapted for AAB play

David
seymour.shabow
2014-05-09 18:10:11 UTC
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Post by i***@gmail.com
I'm a great fan of Sing Along, and when I picked up a Melody I
thought that must be even better. In reality the rule set on Melody
is very poorly thought out and makes it a much less fun game to play
than Sing Along So I guess it depends on how the game has been
adapted for AAB play
The best AAB is Majorettes. The replay version of it sucks!
;)
pinballtom
2014-05-09 20:12:28 UTC
Permalink
I agree
that is why i traded my Melody for a Dimension.
Melody sucks
Dimension is a great pin
cheers tom
Post by i***@gmail.com
I'm a great fan of Sing Along, and when I picked up a Melody I thought that must be even better.
In reality the rule set on Melody is very poorly thought out and makes it a much less fun game to play than Sing Along
So I guess it depends on how the game has been adapted for AAB play
David
t***@gmail.com
2014-05-10 01:00:22 UTC
Permalink
I agree
that is why i traded my Melody for a Dimension.
Melody sucks
Dimension is a great pin
cheers tom
Post by i***@gmail.com
I'm a great fan of Sing Along, and when I picked up a Melody I thought that must be even better.
In reality the rule set on Melody is very poorly thought out and makes it a much less fun game to play than Sing Along
So I guess it depends on how the game has been adapted for AAB play
David
Dimension is on top of the list, but I actually like Melody also.
So far, I haven't really play a 2" Flipper Add-a-Ball that I didn't like..
I did hear about how nice of a player Majorettes is and I do have a pretty
nice one, but not yet shopped it out. But soon I'm getting in a really
nice one that I'll shop out by next Winter that I'm looking forward to.
Being in Upstate N.Y., I'm Add-a-Ball, but for some reason I'm looking
forward to getting World Fair in the Game Room along with the Slick
Chick and Gigi and others. Even with the addition, I'm gonna run out of
space..
llabrevlis
2014-05-10 09:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Wow, couldn't disagree more with Pinballtom and Inco, Melody is such a great game, I much prefer it to Sing A Long. I consider it along with Majorettes to be one of the best AAB's.

Does anyone know why KOD and Melody both have the metal jeweled posts, while DJ and Sing a Long have the white plastic ones? May be a minor point to most, but the metal posts look so much better.

Dale
t***@gmail.com
2014-05-10 11:32:59 UTC
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Post by llabrevlis
Wow, couldn't disagree more with Pinballtom and Inco, Melody is such a great game, I much prefer it to Sing A Long. I consider it along with Majorettes to be one of the best AAB's.
Does anyone know why KOD and Melody both have the metal jeweled posts, while DJ and Sing a Long have the white plastic ones? May be a minor point to most, but the metal posts look so much better.
Dale
This past Winter, I shopped out a few machines and also noticed that Diamond
Jack was skipped over with the metal post and then thinking Melody was the
last to have them. So I went to the Data Base and I see Royal Guard having
plastic post, but one of the pics of a Palace Guard having metal post.
In the past, I've shopped out 2 or 3 Palace Guards and never remember them
having metal post. Well I still have a couple Palace Guards and now I'm
curious. So I go down to the barn and one of the Palace Guards is right in
front and to my surprise, it has metal post. So now I had to move a few things
around to check out the other, and that one has plastic post like I remember
the others that I had. Seems that Palace Guard might be the machine that
used up the remaining of the metal post. No clue why D.J. was shipped..
pinballtom
2014-05-10 12:20:52 UTC
Permalink
I should probably qualify my opinion on Melody.
It sucks, because i suck at playing it.
cheers tom
Post by llabrevlis
Wow, couldn't disagree more with Pinballtom and Inco, Melody is such a great game, I much prefer it to Sing A Long. I consider it along with Majorettes to be one of the best AAB's.
Glen Peters
2014-05-10 21:31:29 UTC
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Ahhhh, yes... the eternal Replay vs. Add-A-Ball controversy.

I, for one am glad I grew up with replay games. Like Ron, I think they were designed better and the AAB's were primarily done to get around the law and be able to sell to that market (in most cases). Always exceptions to the rule but by and large, this was usually the case.

And as far as the... "replays are meaningless for home use" argument, come over to my house sometime and play my coin op games, we'll see how meaningless they are.
Jackpot
2014-05-10 22:03:16 UTC
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Capt Card is worth more than High Hand for sure as it has a better rule set.

Not played DJ so can't comment.
p***@gmail.com
2014-05-11 01:58:25 UTC
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Post by Jackpot
Capt Card is worth more than High Hand for sure as it has a better rule set.
Not played DJ so can't comment.
I'm a replay guy myself, but I've got to agree that any AAB game like Capt. Card or Pop a Card where the targets reset are just plain better. On the replay versions of those two games there's just not a lot going on after the targets are down. Except for specials that is!
t***@gmail.com
2014-05-11 12:43:40 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Jackpot
Capt Card is worth more than High Hand for sure as it has a better rule set.
Not played DJ so can't comment.
I'm a replay guy myself, but I've got to agree that any AAB game like Capt. Card or Pop a Card where the targets reset are just plain better. On the replay versions of those two games there's just not a lot going on after the targets are down. Except for specials that is!
It's been awhile so correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I remember
about KoD. Didn't reset. D.J. and KoD two totally different playing games.
I do understand when some say that some add-a-balls are just to lengthy of
a game at times. But like D.J. and the other 4 digit Add-a-Balls, I haven't
played one that is even close to easy to turn over..
Swamp Wizard
2014-05-11 19:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Jackpot
Capt Card is worth more than High Hand for sure as it has a better rule set.
Not played DJ so can't comment.
I'm a replay guy myself, but I've got to agree that any AAB game like Capt. Card or Pop a Card where the targets reset are just plain better. On the replay versions of those two games there's just not a lot going on after the targets are down. Except for specials that is!
It's been awhile so correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I remember
about KoD. Didn't reset. D.J. and KoD two totally different playing games.
I do understand when some say that some add-a-balls are just to lengthy of
a game at times. But like D.J. and the other 4 digit Add-a-Balls, I haven't
played one that is even close to easy to turn over..
Are you saying that for King of Diamonds, once all 13 cards are hit, they just just stay all down, with special lit? Not even for a new ball? I have to admit, that would not be so good, and I think I'd rather keep my Diamond Jack.
Ron, (Boatcat)
2014-05-12 12:49:54 UTC
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Post by Swamp Wizard
Are you saying that for King of Diamonds, once all 13 cards are hit, they just just stay all down, with special lit? Not even for a new ball? I have to admit, that would not be so good, and I think I'd rather keep my Diamond Jack.
Well......"From the outside looking
in," it may appear that way, but reality
has it on KoD, rather than a simple card
reset having to do the same thing over
again, a brand new objective appears, like
a totally different flavor, offering a
higher reward for ever-changing direct
shots on the roto, etc, and usually with
only 1 ball left to enjoy it, (keeping
this mode exciting and addicting).
My feeling on AAB's is that you're
just going for score, and completing the
same sequences over and over again, none
being that deep since the reward is small.
On a replay game, once the tougher
sequence is completed, a whole new
objective begins, with new shots to go for,
etc. Rarely is the game about a high
score then.
Wedgehead Killer
2014-05-12 13:02:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron, (Boatcat)
Post by Swamp Wizard
Are you saying that for King of Diamonds, once all 13 cards are hit, they just just stay all down, with special lit? Not even for a new ball? I have to admit, that would not be so good, and I think I'd rather keep my Diamond Jack.
Well......"From the outside looking
in," it may appear that way, but reality
has it on KoD, rather than a simple card
reset having to do the same thing over
again, a brand new objective appears, like
a totally different flavor, offering a
higher reward for ever-changing direct
shots on the roto, etc, and usually with
only 1 ball left to enjoy it, (keeping
this mode exciting and addicting).
My feeling on AAB's is that you're
just going for score, and completing the
same sequences over and over again, none
being that deep since the reward is small.
On a replay game, once the tougher
sequence is completed, a whole new
objective begins, with new shots to go for,
etc. Rarely is the game about a high
score then.
The one argument that I always had was scoring. AAB games offer higher scores, and in many models ten times the score, (2001 vs. Dimension), with the fixed zero. From memory the things people wrote on the backbox were their score, not how many games they won. :) I guess it's where you grew up, I live in one of the 3 AAB states. I currently own a nice Diamond Jack, it's a keeper. KOD has s different playfield, the number lanes are in different places on the layout, and it has the stripes on the playfield. The Metal Posts are certainly nicer from an aesthetic approach.
seymour.shabow
2014-05-12 15:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wedgehead Killer
I guess it's where you grew up, I live in one of the 3 AAB states.
^^^^ BINGO! ^^^^^

To extrapolate that out, solid state games were always 3 ball by me, so
that's what I like (even on my EMs). I had a rather large argument with
someone at the York show several years back about what was "factory" -
they were convinced that the factory set it to 5 ball, when in reality
it was really the distributor that set the "default" for the territory,
or even by the operator buying the game. (I'm not saying that 3 or 5
was set by the factory, although I tend to believe it was 3 - but that
the distributor was the one who would have changed it from 3 to 5 for
those territories.)

3 ball/1 credit per quarter, 3 for 50 cents was what I remember the
first solid states appearing set at.
Ron, (Boatcat)
2014-05-12 18:41:16 UTC
Permalink
50> KOD has s different playfield, the number lanes are in different places on the layout,

This is another important area
I've always wanted to center on.
It seems to me on Gtb. AAB's,
the manuf wanted the player to win at
least a one ball per game, so the
sequences were fairly easy to reach.
On replay versions, winning one game
per game is obviously cost-prohibitive
so the sequence is deeper, harder, etc,
forcing Gtb to make necessary playfield
changes between the 2.
Therefore, the difference would
be reaching an easier sequence several
times per game vs. reaching a tougher
sequence for bigger rewards once,
towards the end of a game, being the 2
different "Flavors."
I believe each design was
intended for 1 version while the other
was simply a cost effective duplicate.
The best examples are the flipper
series games, as these are clearly
designed AAB Games. IMO, the two replay
versions of these appearing years later,
(Buckaroo, Cross Town), show design
flaws. Beyond that, I basically follow
Dirtflipper's concept unless I can find
evidence proving otherwise.
The quality of game play at
times is hit or miss regardless. I agree,
Capt Card is a better playing game, (High
Hand is a dud), along with a few others,
(Dimension over 2001, Pop-a-Card - Drop-
a-Card, Hearts & Spades - Spin-a-Card,
etc), but for the most part, the model-
number approach is reliable.

I was an op in '78, '79, when SS
Games hit the streets. We purchased many
games new-in-box from the distributors.
All were set on 3-ball, 1 play 25¢ / 3
plays 50¢.
jcjc
2014-05-13 15:26:06 UTC
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For me and probably most of us that didn't grow up playing pinball and therefore no prior bias one way or the other, the appeal of AAB is that it adds something cool to the current game. A free game is a great achievement but again, without that nostalgia factor it doesn't mean much at home. I've noticed the same favoritism to AABs in the regular players of my pins all of which had never played an EM before. I get that most replays had better rulesets but for the excellent AAB versions, EM pinball doesn't get any better when those machines are set up properly. For me that means posts set conservatively and xtra balls from points set at a difficult but achievable amount.
In regards to DJ, its one of my favorites and I just restored mine but I really wish GTB would have included the rotating red special feature from KoD. They could have made that the way to get xtra balls and the cards in the backbox could have awarded points. Just a thought.
1***@gmail.com
2014-05-13 18:35:56 UTC
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A free game is a great achievement but again, without that nostalgia factor it doesn't mean much at home.

A free game means everything to us that grew up playing replays - either at home or on location - that is the goal of the game.

A free ball gives the same feeling for folks that grew up playing aab's.

It's just a different perspective......
jcjc
2014-05-13 19:25:30 UTC
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Yep, I agree and I understand why each group has its preferences. I was addressing the group that's never played EMs and then are introduced to them. At home its not about free games for this "third" group, it's about high scores and beating your buddy's high score.
1***@gmail.com
2014-05-13 20:01:53 UTC
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Post by jcjc
Yep, I agree and I understand why each group has its preferences. I was addressing the group that's never played EMs and then are introduced to them. At home its not about free games for this "third" group, it's about high scores and beating your buddy's high score.
You can still play each other to compete for high scores on replay games too.......... So a new person to em's could just as much like playing replay's (shorter game times) at home just as much as he could like aab's (longer game times).

Personally I think there's only two main groups - either you like the playability of replay's or aab's - the smaller 3rd group would be someone who likes both replay and aab.

Hey, it's all pinball!
jcjc
2014-05-13 21:14:04 UTC
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I still maintain that the majority of noobs to EMs are going to go for AABs. This is based on what I've seen and the mindset so to speak, of a new person. Free games on a free machine just don't matter to someone that's never played. Subtle rule differences and choosing a machine with potentially short or long game times aren't going to enter into the thought process for someone new to EMs either. All of their games will be short for two main reasons: skill level or lack of and the nature of EMs in general. Short game times are frustrating so the chance to win balls and extend game time a bit will be the overwhelming choice, IMO. Plus an AAB's potential longer games equals higher scores. If you ask someone that hasn't grown up with either which option would they prefer in a home setting: a free game or xtra balls, I'd be hard pressed to believe a significant number would choose a free game. Same goes if you set up a few of the best machines of both styles, let them play and then took a poll.
Yes, it's all pinball and we're lucky to be able to play and own these old gems and debate irrelevant minutiae.
1***@gmail.com
2014-05-13 22:09:42 UTC
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Post by jcjc
I still maintain that the majority of noobs to EMs are going to go for AABs. This is based on what I've seen and the mindset so to speak, of a new person. Free games on a free machine just don't matter to someone that's never played. Subtle rule differences and choosing a machine with potentially short or long game times aren't going to enter into the thought process for someone new to EMs either. All of their games will be short for two main reasons: skill level or lack of and the nature of EMs in general. Short game times are frustrating so the chance to win balls and extend game time a bit will be the overwhelming choice, IMO. Plus an AAB's potential longer games equals higher scores. If you ask someone that hasn't grown up with either which option would they prefer in a home setting: a free game or xtra balls, I'd be hard pressed to believe a significant number would choose a free game. Same goes if you set up a few of the best machines of both styles, let them play and then took a poll.
Yes, it's all pinball and we're lucky to be able to play and own these old gems and debate irrelevant minutiae.
We all have our own opinions and I respect yours - I will say it's a good thing all these newbies getting into the hobby and playing em's for the 1st time aren't buying all the aab's - they're wouldn't be enough to go around since they made so few of them.
jcjc
2014-05-13 22:35:03 UTC
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Likewise and well said.
Ron, (Boatcat)
2014-05-14 03:33:22 UTC
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If you ask someone that hasn't grown up with either which option would they prefer in a home setting: a free game or xtra balls, I'd be hard pressed to believe a significant number would choose a free game

Sadly, this is correct. The newbs
will probably choose AAB's for the simple
shallow reason that, "the replay has no
value in the home environment."
Unfortunately, they'll also be missing
out on the superior designed example of
many games.
If the above were true, I would
wonder why AAB's haven't double or tripled
in value by now. After all, newbs haven't
hardly seen EM's so why wouldn't they
flock to the AAB versions? Boston Pinball
not only reveals no shortage of their
availability year-to-date, it shows their
value to be somewhat less despite the big
difference in production numbers. Those
who attach nostalgic value and fond
memories to replay games have long since
acquired their favorites, so not a factor.
I suppose the overall staggering
number of EM's in the wild is still
allowing the newb to enter the EM side of
the hobby very reasonably, replay or AAB,
which is a great thing.......
seymour.shabow
2014-05-14 05:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by jcjc
I still maintain that the majority of noobs to EMs are going to go
for AABs. This is based on what I've seen and the mindset so to
speak, of a new person. Free games on a free machine just don't
matter to someone that's never played. Subtle rule differences and
choosing a machine with potentially short or long game times aren't
going to enter into the thought process for someone new to EMs
either. All of their games will be short for two main reasons: skill
level or lack of and the nature of EMs in general. Short game times
are frustrating so the chance to win balls and extend game time a bit
will be the overwhelming choice, IMO. Plus an AAB's potential longer
games equals higher scores. If you ask someone that hasn't grown up
with either which option would they prefer in a home setting: a free
game or xtra balls, I'd be hard pressed to believe a significant
number would choose a free game. Same goes if you set up a few of the
best machines of both styles, let them play and then took a poll.
Yes, it's all pinball and we're lucky to be able to play and own
these old gems and debate irrelevant minutiae.
Yes, and I've also run into quite a few people who disconnect tilts,
make everything extra easy, 5 balls per game and unlimited continues on
the DMD models that support it because they are of the belief that
longer game time=more fun.

It just means you get bored of the game quicker. There's no challenge
to beat a HSTD for an accomplished player on a game like this. Luckily
due to the new upswing in competitive pinball, the people who set their
games extra easy are finding out that tournament setups are not so
forgiving.
jcjc
2014-05-14 13:12:12 UTC
Permalink
As for AAB value I think for any comparison to be made, there would have had to have been equal numbers of both types of machines made. As in 50% of each model made was each type. But the overwhelming majority of pins made were replay so the majority of collectors by default grew up with replay and that's what they collect.
I'd hope newbs would play both types of course and if I had the room, I wouldn't have sold a couple of replays I really enjoyed. To comment on the "free game has no value", I hear people say that if you believe that, you don't understand pinball or some such. I understand and appreciate pinball. Its not rocket science or philosophy and I get that replays usually have better rules. My AAB collection (Diamond Jack, Capt Card, Dimension, Flipper Pool, Lucky Hand) of pins trump any "superior" ruleset of their replay counterparts to me because they're AABs. Its not that free games don't have value so much its that the better rules and free game while understood, aren't as desirable or as fun as winning xtra balls to AAB fans.
Ron, (Boatcat)
2014-05-14 15:00:56 UTC
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As for AAB value I think for any comparison to be made, there would have had to have been equal numbers of both types of machines made. As in 50% of each model made was each type. But the overwhelming majority of pins made were replay so the majority of collectors by default grew up with replay and that's what they collect.

I grew up in replay territory,
never saw or even heard of an AAB Game
until I began collecting. My
collection has always had around 20%
AAB's. I don't know of any of my
friends that collect replay games
exclusively, but I do know of a few that
have only AAB's. I also don't think
equal production numbers are necessary
either, AAB popularity despite the
philosophy doesn't seem to be taking off
even though there's less of them around.
If newbs sought them out as you predict,
I'd think we'd have seen a definite
spike in the supply-demand curve by now.

I don't mean to go on and on,
but when Swamp Wizard stated:

"Are you saying that for King of Diamonds, once all 13 cards are hit, they just just stay all down, with special lit? Not even for a new ball? I have to admit, that would not be so good, and I think I'd rather keep my Diamond Jack."

it's clear, he has little if any
experience with replay games.
jcjc
2014-05-14 17:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Or there's just not enough newbs getting in the hobby to be significant. By that I mean newbs collecting EMs. Chances are their first EM experience will be a replay and that's what they'll search out if they decide to collect and then maybe run into an AAB later. But I bet most people getting into the hobby are going for modern pins especially if they're younger and want the toys, lights, sounds of modern machines.
I don't know about Swamp's experience but if I didn't already have a DJ and a KoD came along, I'd definitely snag it and leave it at that.
c***@provide.net
2014-05-14 22:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by jcjc
As for AAB value I think for any comparison to be made, there would have had to have been equal numbers of both types of machines made. As in 50% of each model made was each type. But the overwhelming majority of pins made were replay so the majority of collectors by default grew up with replay and that's what they collect.
I grew up in replay territory,
never saw or even heard of an AAB Game
until I began collecting. My
collection has always had around 20%
AAB's. I don't know of any of my
friends that collect replay games
exclusively, but I do know of a few that
have only AAB's. I also don't think
equal production numbers are necessary
either, AAB popularity despite the
philosophy doesn't seem to be taking off
even though there's less of them around.
If newbs sought them out as you predict,
I'd think we'd have seen a definite
spike in the supply-demand curve by now.
I don't mean to go on and on,
"Are you saying that for King of Diamonds, once all 13 cards are hit, they just just stay all down, with special lit? Not even for a new ball? I have to admit, that would not be so good, and I think I'd rather keep my Diamond Jack."
it's clear, he has little if any
experience with replay games.
Personally i look at each title and judge
accordingly. Some games the replay is better.
some the AAB is better. I try and go for
"the better one."

For example, i personally like 2001 better
than aab Dimension. AAB in this case is too
easy (though the artwork is better.) I prefer
Bank-a-ball replay to Flipper Pool aab.
it just depends.

I do like Diamond Jack better the KoD though.
Ron, (Boatcat)
2014-05-15 03:21:57 UTC
Permalink
Well....Since Tim Arnold states
KoD is his favorite '60's game, and Clay
states he prefers Diamond Jack, I'd say
1 thing is certain.... They both must be
damn good games!
Wedgehead Killer
2014-05-15 17:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron, (Boatcat)
Well....Since Tim Arnold states
KoD is his favorite '60's game, and Clay
states he prefers Diamond Jack, I'd say
1 thing is certain.... They both must be
damn good games!
Is Clay from the Wisconsin area, that would make sense. As far as the value goes, I have a simple explanation. Take the lower 48 states, 45 of those states for those of us who grew up on EM had replay games. So if you want to revert back to your youth, you locate the game you remember playing. That puts demand high over supply even if the supply is 5 times greater on replay over AAB. There are roughly 15 times as many people who grew up on replay games. Even though there were only 650 DJ's made, I think being such a good player it kept a lot home owners incentive to have them kept up and serviced. The same with KOD, people took care of the classics.
jcjc
2014-05-15 22:13:06 UTC
Permalink
That's what I was thinking when I mentioned a valid comparison/conclusion could really only be made if equal numbers of each were produced. I'm no statistician, however.
Ron, (Boatcat)
2014-05-16 05:26:27 UTC
Permalink
I thought we were talking about
newbs to EM's. People that hardly saw
EM's at all, not people that grew up
playing just one version. What does it
matter how big or small each production
run is if they haven't seen either one
of them?
As far as those wanting to find
EM games from their youth, those days
are done. Those collectors all have
them by now.
I get that replay games are all
over, and that newbs will probably run
into them cheap starting out, but if
the AAB Game is so much better in the
home setting, I would think there would
be more of a demand several years ago,
especially since supplies are low. It
never happened, and AAB prices are
still lagging somewhat behind their
replay counterparts. Anybody with a
logical explanation?
Swamp Wizard
2014-05-16 10:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron, (Boatcat)
As far as those wanting to find
EM games from their youth, those days
are done. Those collectors all have
them by now.
There will always be folks "thinning the herd". Of course, the best games will be less likely to be thinned. But in any case, when the price gets high enough, folks are willing to thin.
c***@provide.net
2014-05-16 10:51:26 UTC
Permalink
I'm from NY but i didn't play pinball until after
college in the late 1980s. so i'm not working with
that "youth memory" thing. Just some games i like
the AAB or the replay version. I analyze it based
on the game play itself, not on a distance memory
of what i played when a kid. but my situation is
probably more unique than most.
Post by Wedgehead Killer
Post by Ron, (Boatcat)
Well....Since Tim Arnold states
KoD is his favorite '60's game, and Clay
states he prefers Diamond Jack, I'd say
1 thing is certain.... They both must be
damn good games!
Is Clay from the Wisconsin area, that would make sense. As far as the value goes, I have a simple explanation. Take the lower 48 states, 45 of those states for those of us who grew up on EM had replay games. So if you want to revert back to your youth, you locate the game you remember playing. That puts demand high over supply even if the supply is 5 times greater on replay over AAB. There are roughly 15 times as many people who grew up on replay games. Even though there were only 650 DJ's made, I think being such a good player it kept a lot home owners incentive to have them kept up and serviced. The same with KOD, people took care of the classics.
Swamp Wizard
2014-05-16 10:34:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by jcjc
As for AAB value I think for any comparison to be made, there would have had to have been equal numbers of both types of machines made. As in 50% of each model made was each type. But the overwhelming majority of pins made were replay so the majority of collectors by default grew up with replay and that's what they collect.
I grew up in replay territory,
never saw or even heard of an AAB Game
until I began collecting. My
collection has always had around 20%
AAB's. I don't know of any of my
friends that collect replay games
exclusively, but I do know of a few that
have only AAB's. I also don't think
equal production numbers are necessary
either, AAB popularity despite the
philosophy doesn't seem to be taking off
even though there's less of them around.
If newbs sought them out as you predict,
I'd think we'd have seen a definite
spike in the supply-demand curve by now.
I don't mean to go on and on,
"Are you saying that for King of Diamonds, once all 13 cards are hit, they just just stay all down, with special lit? Not even for a new ball? I have to admit, that would not be so good, and I think I'd rather keep my Diamond Jack."
it's clear, he has little if any
experience with replay games.
Actually, all of my playing experience back in the old days when I had to put coins in to play was with replay games - and I do place a premium on getting a replay. With that said, I am also a drop target - or target set - junkie. For me, if KoD is such that the target set could only be done once, with the special being lit for subsequent balls, then I think that DJ, with its play of allowing for the fresh target set after finishing, might be more enjoyable for me.

I recall Pop-A-Card being the same way in which once all the targets are down, then for all subsequent balls, there is nothing to shoot for except special. OK, this might be nice if I had to put coins in, but obviously that is not the case. Of course, it is still exciting to nail all the targets and get specials for the rest of that ball, but I like everything to be reset for the next ball.

I really like the way Jack In The Box has it that the targets reset upon being completed, and immediately, allowing for continued play on that ball. Diamond Jack is the same way.

With this new info, I think I will stick with Diamond Jack - although I am still perturbed about the 110V going into the coin door! (I think I can add in a relay that only puts 25V to the door.)
t***@gmail.com
2014-05-16 11:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Swamp Wizard
Post by jcjc
As for AAB value I think for any comparison to be made, there would have had to have been equal numbers of both types of machines made. As in 50% of each model made was each type. But the overwhelming majority of pins made were replay so the majority of collectors by default grew up with replay and that's what they collect.
I grew up in replay territory,
never saw or even heard of an AAB Game
until I began collecting. My
collection has always had around 20%
AAB's. I don't know of any of my
friends that collect replay games
exclusively, but I do know of a few that
have only AAB's. I also don't think
equal production numbers are necessary
either, AAB popularity despite the
philosophy doesn't seem to be taking off
even though there's less of them around.
If newbs sought them out as you predict,
I'd think we'd have seen a definite
spike in the supply-demand curve by now.
I don't mean to go on and on,
"Are you saying that for King of Diamonds, once all 13 cards are hit, they just just stay all down, with special lit? Not even for a new ball? I have to admit, that would not be so good, and I think I'd rather keep my Diamond Jack."
it's clear, he has little if any
experience with replay games.
Actually, all of my playing experience back in the old days when I had to put coins in to play was with replay games - and I do place a premium on getting a replay. With that said, I am also a drop target - or target set - junkie. For me, if KoD is such that the target set could only be done once, with the special being lit for subsequent balls, then I think that DJ, with its play of allowing for the fresh target set after finishing, might be more enjoyable for me.
I recall Pop-A-Card being the same way in which once all the targets are down, then for all subsequent balls, there is nothing to shoot for except special. OK, this might be nice if I had to put coins in, but obviously that is not the case. Of course, it is still exciting to nail all the targets and get specials for the rest of that ball, but I like everything to be reset for the next ball.
I really like the way Jack In The Box has it that the targets reset upon being completed, and immediately, allowing for continued play on that ball. Diamond Jack is the same way.
With this new info, I think I will stick with Diamond Jack - although I am still perturbed about the 110V going into the coin door! (I think I can add in a relay that only puts 25V to the door.)
Actually it's Drop-a-Card that's the replay machine. It was like the 5th
machine that I picked up and after going through it, I didn't care for it
so much. I did have a few and still have a Pop-a-Card and I hear P-a-C is
a really nice playing game. That'll be one for next Winter..
I can't say 100%, but from my experience with both games, if you traded away
your D.J., I'd really believe that you'd wish that you could turn back time..
Ron, (Boatcat)
2014-05-16 16:55:55 UTC
Permalink
I analyze it based on the game play itself, not on
a distance memory of what i played when a kid.
I do the exact same thing. Space
is of the essence in my house, so I gotta
be picky.
There's a few games which I've
chosen the AAB version, Dimension and
Hearts & Spades, as I feel these versions
play better. If there were wows on DJ,
it might make for more exciting play. I
was a tech at the Silverball Museum in NJ
which had both KoD and DJ. Each time I
tried DJ, I lost interest in finishing the
game. I felt no strategy change or change
of pace in the game at all. Just finish
the sequence, reset, and continue on. I
found it boring. On Dimension, you're
drawn away from the drop targets once wows
are lit. The play at that time is
centered on the bottom half of the
playfield, with a chance at a very
exciting, mega-successful ball. This
"Change of pace," is kind of like the
special mode on replay games.
I did find Dimension to be flat
out very easy. Pop a Card looks to be the
same way in wow mode. Perhaps this is why
they carry such a following.

Kerry Imming
2014-05-11 11:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glen Peters
Ahhhh, yes... the eternal Replay vs. Add-A-Ball controversy.
Is there any information documenting whether games were designed to be
replay and then adapted to add-a-ball? Were any vice-versa?
It seems like a huge design task to optimize for both.

- Kerry
DirtFlipper
2014-05-11 12:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerry Imming
Post by Glen Peters
Ahhhh, yes... the eternal Replay vs. Add-A-Ball controversy.
Is there any information documenting whether games were designed to be
replay and then adapted to add-a-ball? Were any vice-versa?
It seems like a huge design task to optimize for both.
- Kerry
I don't know how foolproof it is, but I've typically gone by the model number, with the earlier model number being the 'original' design, and the later model number being the adaptation.

And sometimes the release date reinforces this, as the alternate version often has a delay (by more than a year in some cases). But sometimes they were seemingly done all at the same time.

For example, Flipper Cowboy is model 196, released in October '62, but a replay alternative (Buckaroo) is model 219, released June '65. But... Cowpoke was also released in June '65, but is model 223.

Central Park/Hurdy Gurdy have consecutive model numbers (226/227), and were released a month apart, whereas Subway/Cross Town also have consecutive model numbers (228/229), but Cross Town was released a month ahead of Subway.

Doing a search on IPDB, but sorting by Model Number is an interesting list, to see these relationships. (You can also see other oddities, like Royal Guard being model number 224, assigned right after Cowpoke, but not released until '68.)
pinballtom
2014-05-11 16:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Have a look at the Engineering card lists on ipdb also.
http://www.ipdb.org/historical/gtlbengcards/
as that may give some insight which came first ( or simultaneous )
Then there were those few games that also had multiplyer models as well as the single player replay and AAB versions.
Big Shot/Hot Shot/ProPool & Play Pool and
Jungle/ Wild Life/ Jungle King/Jungle Life
where the multiplayers came first.

cheers tom
Post by DirtFlipper
Doing a search on IPDB, but sorting by Model Number is an interesting list, to see these relationships. (You can also see other oddities, like Royal Guard being model number 224, assigned right after Cowpoke, but not released until '68.)
pinballtom
2014-05-11 16:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by pinballtom
Have a look at the Engineering card lists on ipdb also.
http://www.ipdb.org/historical/gtlbengcards/
as that may give some insight which came first ( or simultaneous )
Also interesting to see how some of the names changed and progressed thru the development stages
i.e Chief/Big Injun/to Big Indian.
and Royal Rock became King Rock.
Also that some games never made it to production
like the AAB versions of Spin Out
Super Charge (IT) and Racer (US AAB)
Or Royal Cards, the planned US AAB version of Top Card.
Makes one wonder if there was not some proto/sample game ever produced on those. cheers tom
Glen Peters
2014-05-11 18:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Which came first, the chicken or the egg??

he he

Whatever the case may be, I think it's great that there are people that prefer the replay versions... and people that prefer the Add-A-Balls.

That way, there's no need to have either one of them euthanized.

: )
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